Democracy? Shamocracy!

**jonboi** · 06/10/2020 01:05 PM

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Whilst our Prime Minister Boris Johnson was an amusing character in a typically “British” way prior to becoming Prime Minister, he has proved himself during his short period as PM to be less amusing with his “catch phrases” and what turns out to be meaningless and pointless rhetoric, and more of a chaotic leader, in fact, no leader at all! The clues were there when he was Mayor of London – the London Garden Bridge which cost millions and never happened. Buying rusty old German water cannons (3) which also cost millions and had to be sold for scrap (but I mean, Water cannons in the UK?! What was the thinking there?). The ill-thought out Boris Bikes. And an airport in the Thames estuary for Gods sake!

So just at a time when good leadership is desperately needed, we have Johnson.
We also have a secretive, manipulative, right-wing government which is working to remove the checks and balances which have existed in our democracy for hundreds of years, and which makes our democracy work. Look at the Civil Service heads of department who have resigned under pressure. Look at the threat to our established legal System. The illegal proroguing of Parliament and the subsequent sacking of those Conservatives who didn’t agree with the government. It’s about replacing neutral, level headed people who know how a democracy works with your own people to fit a pretty unpleasant agenda. This removal of the checks and balances just doesn’t happen in a democracy!

There’s also a low-key “chumocracy” in government as well, whereby contracts are awarded quietly to Conservative backers and supporters and cronies without going out to tender as is required in a normal and fair democratic society. This is particularly worrying for the future of the NHS!

There are though, fortunately within the Conservative party; MP’s and members who valiantly oppose the direction this government is going, but even they are slowly being neutralised.
Our democracy: we may not like how it works all the time but it does work. Remove those checks and balances, those fair and democratically minded people of whatever political persuasion, and you head towards a dangerous place. Anyone who has studied recent history will see the frightening parallels between our position today in the UK with a right-wing and populist government (a deadly combination) and early Germany in the 1930’s – different circumstances but the same mindset.
No, I’m not a “Loony Leftie” but neither am I a “Raving Right-winger” not a Liberal either, but a citizen of a once proud and democratic UK, and I want to keep it that way. To do that, we have to oppose what this government is trying to do in subtly undermining democracy on every level.

**Desert Region** · 06/10/2020 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by jonboi

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Whilst our Prime Minister Boris Johnson was an amusing character in a typically “British” way prior to becoming Prime Minister, he has proved himself during his short period as PM to be less amusing with his “catch phrases” and what turns out to be meaningless and pointless rhetoric, and more of a chaotic leader, in fact, no leader at all! The clues were there when he was Mayor of London – the London Garden Bridge which cost millions and never happened. Buying rusty old German water cannons (3) which also cost millions and had to be sold for scrap (but I mean, Water cannons in the UK?! What was the thinking there?). The ill-thought out Boris Bikes. And an airport in the Thames estuary for Gods sake!

So just at a time when good leadership is desperately needed, we have Johnson.
We also have a secretive, manipulative, right-wing government which is working to remove the checks and balances which have existed in our democracy for hundreds of years, and which makes our democracy work. Look at the Civil Service heads of department who have resigned under pressure. Look at the threat to our established legal System. The illegal proroguing of Parliament and the subsequent sacking of those Conservatives who didn’t agree with the government. It’s about replacing neutral, level headed people who know how a democracy works with your own people to fit a pretty unpleasant agenda. This removal of the checks and balances just doesn’t happen in a democracy!

There’s also a low-key “chumocracy” in government as well, whereby contracts are awarded quietly to Conservative backers and supporters and cronies without going out to tender as is required in a normal and fair democratic society. This is particularly worrying for the future of the NHS!

There are though, fortunately within the Conservative party; MP’s and members who valiantly oppose the direction this government is going, but even they are slowly being neutralised.
Our democracy: we may not like how it works all the time but it does work. Remove those checks and balances, those fair and democratically minded people of whatever political persuasion, and you head towards a dangerous place. Anyone who has studied recent history will see the frightening parallels between our position today in the UK with a right-wing and populist government (a deadly combination) and early Germany in the 1930’s – different circumstances but the same mindset.
No, I’m not a “Loony Leftie” but neither am I a “Raving Right-winger” not a Liberal either, but a citizen of a once proud and democratic UK, and I want to keep it that way. To do that, we have to oppose what this government is trying to do in subtly undermining democracy on every level.

Simon also never admitted to being a Lib Dem.

**said** · 06/10/2020 05:49 PM

There are limits to our democracy. It is impossible for the UK to be a completely democratic country. It is now so diverse with so many people requiring their individual democratic right which in many cases, prevents the democratic right of others. That is the reason why David Cameron wanted to introduce the British Bill of Human Rights. The USA is not a totally democratic country and it has not consented to the Universal Human Rights Bill. Democracy is many things to many people.

**Toodles McGinty** · 06/10/2020 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by said

It is now so diverse with so many people requiring their individual democratic right which in many cases, prevents the democratic right of others.

How? How does a person being entitled to their Human Rights take away yours?

I noticed the attack today from Johnson on 'do-gooder human rights lawyers'. The Patel creature said something similar recently. Is that the new government tack? Doing good is wrong? Human Rights are wrong?

Interesting. That 28% approval rate must be disturbing them.

**Alikado** · 06/10/2020 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty

How? How does a person being entitled to their Human Rights take away yours?

I noticed the attack today from Johnson on 'do-gooder human rights lawyers'. The Patel creature said something similar recently. Is that the new government tack? Doing good is wrong? Human Rights are wrong?

Interesting. That 28% approval rate must be disturbing them.

The 'do gooder' lawyers are only doing their job, if the laws had been properly written in the first place there wouldn't be any loopholes for them to exploit.
If cases came up to court / tribunal in a timely manner with good laws justice would be done and chancers would less likely to go to litigation.

**Mint** · 06/10/2020 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty

That 28% approval rate must be disturbing them.

Who are these people??

**Toodles McGinty** · 07/10/2020 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Mint

Who are these people??

Johnson & co. According to Conservative Home, his approval rate among the Tory faithful has dropped to 28%.

Here.

Hence the 'Boys Own Adventure' speech yesterday, peppered with war references and mentioning the post war 'New Jerusalem'. Which was Clement Attlee's post war vision of a welfare state. Odd reference, really.

**Hamble** · 08/10/2020 09:17 AM

Things are looking up now Simon Case is on the job.

**Toodles McGinty** · 08/10/2020 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Hamble

Things are looking up now Simon Case is on the job.

In what way?

**said** · 08/10/2020 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty

How? How does a person being entitled to their Human Rights take away yours?

I noticed the attack today from Johnson on 'do-gooder human rights lawyers'. The Patel creature said something similar recently. Is that the new government tack? Doing good is wrong? Human Rights are wrong?

Interesting. That 28% approval rate must be disturbing them.

It does not take a lot of thought. The Muslims in this country expressed the freedom of right to be able to play the call to Prayer in the mornings - a large number of people protested because to do so would prevent THEIR right to peace and quiet. So whose human rights take priority? And who gets to decide?

A criminal has human rights. Do their rights come before those of a person who has never committed any crime in his life?

There are several examples illustrating the limits to democracy.

**Alikado** · 08/10/2020 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by said

It does not take a lot of thought. The Muslims in this country expressed the freedom of right to be able to play the call to Prayer in the mornings - a large number of people protested because to do so would prevent THEIR right to peace and quiet. So whose human rights take priority? And who gets to decide?

A criminal has human rights. Do their rights come before those of a person who has never committed any crime in his life?

There are several examples illustrating the limits to democracy.

Nobody has a human right to peace and quiet if they did few railways, airports or factories would exist, a call to prayer is only the same as ringing a church bell something that has been going on for centuries.

**Toodles McGinty** · 08/10/2020 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by said

It does not take a lot of thought. The Muslims in this country expressed the freedom of right to be able to play the call to Prayer in the mornings - a large number of people protested because to do so would prevent THEIR right to peace and quiet. So whose human rights take priority? And who gets to decide?

A criminal has human rights. Do their rights come before those of a person who has never committed any crime in his life?

There are several examples illustrating the limits to democracy.

As Ali says, it's no different to church bells.

Nobody's human rights take priority, that's the thing about them. Human Rights should be upheld equally. There might be circumstances where someone's rights being violated take on more urgency, let's say, for example, mass atrocities versus freedom of expression. But all should be upheld.

Who gets to decide? I'd say it was down to everyone, but agreements have been made by recognised bodies such as the UN and the ECHR. It's a common moral language.

Criminals? As the European court of human rights frequently makes clear, at the heart of the convention is the need to strike a fair balance between the rights of the individual and the needs of the wider society. So while some of the rights in the convention are absolute – the prohibition on torture or inhuman or degrading treatment – other rights are subject to limitations or can be restricted where there is a clear legal basis for the restriction, it is done for a good reason and the constraint is proportionate.

**Hamble** · 08/10/2020 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty

In what way?

A brief to modernise the left wing Civil Service.

**Toodles McGinty** · 08/10/2020 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Hamble

A brief to modernise the left wing Civil Service.

That's his brief? Where did you read about his brief?

According to Civil Service World: "Simon is extending his secondment from the royal household and will be supporting the prime minister and cabinet in developing and implementing the government’s coronavirus response.”

I've read he's there to 'deliver reform' (FT). Never read anything about the left wing Civil Service.

What is he supposed to do with the right wing Civil Service, then?

**Hamble** · 08/10/2020 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty

That's his brief? Where did you read about his brief?

According to Civil Service World: "Simon is extending his secondment from the royal household and will be supporting the prime minister and cabinet in developing and implementing the government’s coronavirus response.”

I've read he's there to 'deliver reform' (FT). Never read anything about the left wing Civil Service.

What is he supposed to do with the right wing Civil Service, then?

The FT-you found it.

The Civil Service is supposed to be politically neutral as it does not change staff with the change of PM.

Neither voice should be leaking documents or resigning noisily when they disagree with Brexit or current Government policy.

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