Big Red Bus "LIE"

[bensherman]

The £350m lie was being told by UKIP at least a year before the referendum. For example, it was used at its election meeting at the Royal Clifton in 2015.

I went home and within an hour had worked out just what a big lie it was.

I fully agree that what the EU costs is a valid consideration, as in is it value for money? But to do so you need to take into account the rebate, CAP payments, infrastructure grants; and if you want to to it PROPERLY you should also account for the extra costs associated with being out, such as in Borders and Customs staff.

During 15-16 that £315m figure was subjected to quite a lot of analysis, and consistently found to be over-estimating by at least double.

Yet I was amazed to see it being used in 2016. Either Johnson and the rest were too lazy to check it, or knew it was untrue but didn't care.

Did people believe it? Yes. The true cost of the EU is a complex calculation and most people assume it's the truth. Did it matter? Yes. Within weeks of the vote I heard vox pops of people asking why it wasn't already being paid. That's how much it was understood.

Then there is the cynicism of the whole "NHS" connection. Johnson, Gove and Farage do not support the NHS. But they must also have known that if you threw £350m./week at the NHS, it would not produce more doctors, nurses or hospitals. They have many years' lead-time. What the NHS needs is substantial, long-term investment.

It would in fact have passed straight through the NHS to private healthcare operators doing routine treatments. So the people who fund the Tory party would line their pockets again.

[local]

The ASA got 374 complaints about the Bus

by contrast,

The campaign for fast food chain KFC, attracted 755 complaints that it was disrespectful to chickens and distressing for vegetarians, vegans and children.


Cluck cluck.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ed-vegans-asa/

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...exit-campaigns


Its just bunches of sour buses from the people who lost the intellectual argument.

[The PNP]

The ASA got 374 complaints about the Bus

By comparison, how many complaints (if any) did the ASA receive about the 'remain' campaigns material?


STOP BREXIT!

[seivad]

You are not that cracked that you ACTUALLY believe a politician are you?

First, you ought to know that Vote Leave had nothing to do with Nigel Farage - it only appeared after the referendum was announced. The Director of Vote Leave is and was a Remain supporter! The whole bus issue was intended to be highly controversial by the person whose idea it was to present it. The Independent Headlines, that you seem to have missed:

"Vote Leave chief who created £350m NHS claim on bus admits leaving EU could be 'an error'

I take it that you're referring to Dominic Cummings. If so, he was, and still is, a rabid Leave supporter. However, to say that he's teed off with the way the government has handled Brexit is a bit of an understatement.

A Leaver writes: Politicians have ruined my Brexit

If you're behind a paywall on the FT site, you can read it here

And a more recent (March 2019) blog entry calling for Vote Leave activists to rebuild their network Dominic Cummings Blog

[AdmiralAckbar]

Yes you.

You make no sense (and not for the 1st time).

[AdmiralAckbar]

I previously asked you if you knew the difference between "Let's spend" and "We WILL spend" not a very hard question but you like the fool pnp seem unable to get your grey cell to work.

You did indeed ask a question here ...

Do you not understand the difference between LET'S GIVE and WE WILL GIVE?

... but before I could respond SF had responded with what I probably would have responded with anyway ...

What difference is that then?

PS
If you wish to be pedantic you could infer that giving the money to the NHS was merely a suggestion, but the £350 million was a clear statement and outright lie

... but you chose not to respond.

So, now that you know my response would have been (and is) "What difference is that then?" please educate us all as to any difference (not that anyone other than yourself, mentioned the words "We will give...")

... and specifically in it's context here, please enlighten us how "Let's give ..." could possibly have been interpreted as anything other than a statement of intent.

... anyone got any popcorn?

[local]

Lets as in;


lets have sex

is not a statement of intent its a suggestion as to what we could do,
which in our case may well prove to be rebuffed if only because pop corn gets everywhere.

As to the £350 million what exactly is your problem is it the number, the currency ?

[AdmiralAckbar]

Lets as in;


lets have sex

is not a statement of intent its a suggestion as to what we could do,
which in our case may well prove to be rebuffed if only because pop corn gets everywhere.

As to the £350 million what exactly is your problem is it the number, the currency ?

One word, context.

For example, "Let's go to the pub", as you state, by itself, is a suggestion ... and unless there was a prior expectation, a typical response would/could be "ok" or "why, what are you celebrating?".

However, if someone said "I've won the lottery and the drinks are on me. Let's go the pub" ... same words but with context bring a typical response of "mines a double JD&Coke".

The context is important because it nurtures the response.




... oh and as for your offer, I'm flattered but no thanks.

[local]

The context was a contest to win votes

and quoting £350 million (in fact the real figure was £363 Million a week) or £18.9 Billion* yes its the gross figure but our "rebates and grants " from the EU are on a discretionary basis and could end.

If I ask you how much a nurse gets paid most would quote a gross figure despite the fact they may well be entitled to tax credits and other state payments does that make them liars ?


* url]https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31[/url]


The reality is £181 million net or £363 Million Gross are two big numbers for most people to rationalise either would make a significant difference to the NHS.

The average gross wage is £29009.



If your telling fishing stories are you really likely to use the gutted weight ?

[AdmiralAckbar]

The context was a contest to win votes

and quoting £350 million (in fact the real figure was £363 Million a week) or £18.9 Billion* yes its the gross figure but our "rebates and grants " from the EU are on a discretionary basis and could end.

If I ask you how much a nurse gets paid most would quote a gross figure despite the fact they may well be entitled to tax credits and other state payments does that make them liars ?


* url]https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31[/url]


The reality is £181 million net or £363 Million Gross are two big numbers for most people to rationalise either would make a significant difference to the NHS.

The average gross wage is £29009.



If your telling fishing stories are you really likely to use the gutted weight ?

Wow !

Lots of words, and yet no attempt to answer the question which I was talking about and had been posed by LL, which was ...

Do you not understand the difference between LET'S GIVE and WE WILL GIVE?

I don't think I've directly commented on the actual figure quoted of £350m (other than when I've quoted the message), although one of my earlier links totally debunks that figure ... yet you accused me of fixating on it and provided the above response which is all about numbers. Laughable!

The figure is not the issue here - it could have been any incorrect figure. The message and what it suggested and how the lie influenced voting is the important bit.

[local]

Wow !

Lots of words, and yet no attempt to answer the question which I was talking about and had been posed by LL, which was ...

I don't think I've directly commented on the actual figure quoted of £350m (other than when I've quoted the message), although one of my earlier links totally debunks that figure ... yet you accused me of fixating on it and provided the above response which is all about numbers. Laughable!

The figure is not the issue here - it could have been any incorrect figure. The message and what it suggested and how the lie influenced voting is the important bit.

Dear me you have woken up grumpy haven't you I assume you are replying to someone else's post


My numbers were from the ONS so you debunk it with them if you like.

Quoting the gross figure is not a lie in fact they under-quoted it .ONS again.

And I have addressed lets in spades sorry if you missed it have you not rubbed your eyes yet

Oh and the fixating thing......not me guv


Which "lie" is more likely to influence, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Governor of the Bank of England telling us we would go into recession the next day and have to have an emergency budget or the scruffy haired "toff" with a red bus suggesting we spend loadsa money on the NHS...........

Beep beep .

[The PNP]

and the Governor of the Bank of England telling us we would go into recession the next day and have to have an emergency budget or the scruffy haired "toff" with a red bus suggesting we spend loadsa money on the NHS...........

That red bus 'lie' was responsible for well over 300 complaints to the Advertising Standards Authority.....How many complaints were there (if any) about the remain campaigns material?

Beep beep.


STOP BREXIT!

[local]

That red bus 'lie' was responsible for well over 300 complaints to the Advertising Standards Authority.....How many complaints were there (if any) about the remain campaigns material?

Beep beep.


STOP BREXIT!

You kind of shot yourself in the foot with that one, you aren't called remoaners for nothing of course you complained its what you do.

Still only 300 out of 16 million + of you bothered and you lost the intellectual argument doesn't seem bad at all.

The Brexit voters were far more interested in the real issues.

[The PNP]

The Brexit voters were far more interested in the real issues.

Everyone was interested in the real issues, but were fed a smokescreen of spurious data (e.g. the £350m). Seem also to recall brexiters claiming Turkey was about to join the EU, which turned out to be another one that isn't happening. Nigels propaganda pictures of hordes coming from Syria during their civil war, were genuine - but that episode has now passed.

The picture, as far as the average Joe is concerned, has indeed changed substantially:

A) The magic £350m pot for the NHS has been debunked.
B) No invasion of 70m Turks.
C) Syrian refugees have dried up/begun returning home
D) The 'deal' we got, is far removed from what brexiters promised.
E) Parliament can't get that deal through, and is in deadlock.
F) Immigration from the EU to UK is in decline.
G) The £pound - and all our savings - have shrunk.
H) Disgruntlement has got so bad, it's now led to calls for another vote.


STOP BREXIT!

[Mr B S Sniffer]

Everyone was interested in the real issues, but were fed a smokescreen of spurious data (e.g. the £350m). Seem also to recall brexiters claiming Turkey was about to join the EU, which turned out to be another one that isn't happening. Nigels propaganda pictures of hordes coming from Syria during their civil war, were genuine - but that episode has now passed.

The picture, as far as the average Joe is concerned, has indeed changed substantially:

A) The magic £350m pot for the NHS has been debunked.
B) No invasion of 70m Turks.
C) Syrian refugees have dried up/begun returning home
D) The 'deal' we got, is far removed from what brexiters promised.
E) Parliament can't get that deal through, and is in deadlock.
F) Immigration from the EU to UK is in decline.
G) The £pound - and all our savings - have shrunk.
H) Disgruntlement has got so bad, it's now led to calls for another vote.


STOP BREXIT!

And the European army which Clegg claimed was a dangerous fantasy?