Free Speech - what do you think

[Hamble]

Quote Zero
"Palestinians will accept a single Israel /Palestine provided they are free and equal citizens within it.[/QUOTE]"

I don't think so!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

[sandGroundZero]

You invoke Israel I invoke Hamas because they are the two sides at war. | You do not invoke Egypt also placing restrictions on Palestine or Hezbollah attacking from outside Israel.

Some of your comments implicitly acknowledge that Hamas is NOT representative of the Palestinians. Hamas is a political faction for a small minority of extreme antagonists bred through decades of struggle.

An exclusively Jewish state of Israel has not always been the overwhelmingly dominant ideal of Jews determined to return to Palestine. But it has become just that since the early contact with the pre-existing Palestinian population generated resistance. Zionism that supposed Palestinians would simply retreat was unrealistic. Zionism that intends to expel Palestinians and expropriate their land is pernicious. A century of expansion of Jewish control has generated more hatred, violence and turmoil.

How can you ignore the evidence of Hamas abuse against Palestinian's?
Palestinian's want their own State. | Why would you not support them?

You say "Palestinian's want their own State", but the actions of the Israeli state have made that an unworkable solution. Peaceful coexistence in a single state wherein Jewish and non-Jewish residents alike have equal civil, political and human rights is the only resolution of this conflict. It is militancy among the Jewish population, not Hamas that stands in the way of peace.

[Hamble]

Some of your comments implicitly acknowledge that Hamas is NOT representative of the Palestinians. Hamas is a political faction for a small minority of extreme antagonists bred through decades of struggle.

An exclusively Jewish state of Israel has not always been the overwhelmingly dominant ideal of Jews determined to return to Palestine. But it has become just that since the early contact with the pre-existing Palestinian population generated resistance. Zionism that supposed Palestinians would simply retreat was unrealistic. Zionism that intends to expel Palestinians and expropriate their land is pernicious. A century of expansion of Jewish control has generated more hatred, violence and turmoil.


You say "Palestinian's want their own State", but the actions of the Israeli state have made that an unworkable solution. Peaceful coexistence in a single state wherein Jewish and non-Jewish residents alike have equal civil, political and human rights is the only resolution of this conflict. It is militancy among the Jewish population, not Hamas that stands in the way of peace.

Israel was created as a State on the understanding all religions would coexist that is true.

The majority of Palestinians in Palestine and the diaspora plus their supporters march and demonstrate for a Palestinian State.

Palestine has two ruling bodies-Hamas the Radical Islamic Terrorist one in Gaza and Fatah the non Islamic terrorist one in the rest of Palestine.

A Palestinian State (you must agree) is the wish of all except Israel.

I believe the Palestinians should get a State in return for peace.

[sandGroundZero]

1. Israel was created as a State on the understanding all religions would coexist that is true.
2. The majority of Palestinians in Palestine and the diaspora plus their supporters march and demonstrate for a Palestinian State.
3. Palestine has two ruling bodies-Hamas the Radical Islamic Terrorist one in Gaza and Fatah the non Islamic terrorist one in the rest of Palestine.
   
   
4. A Palestinian State (you must agree) is the wish of all except Israel.
5. I believe the Palestinians should get a State in return for peace.

1. Whose "understanding"? Understanding of what, exactly? Non-Jewish residents in Israel are not accorded equal standing.
   ______________________________________________________________________________ Basic Law: Israel – The Nation State of the Jewish People
   1. Basic principles
   

   1. The Land of Israel is the historic national home of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.
   2. The State of Israel is the national state of the Jewish people, in which it exercises its natural, cultural, and historic right to self-determination.
   3. Exercising the right to national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
   ______________________________________________________________________________
   
   
2. Palestinians march and demonstrated for a just settlement. Applying the 1947 boundaries might just about permit two viable states. But that is debatable and in any case it is what the fighting has been about for 7½ decades.
   
   
3. "Hamas …in Gaza and Fatah …in the rest of Palestine" — these are political entities; they are NOT the Palestinian people.
   
   
4. Emphatically I do not agree! Except that the Israeli government policy appears to insist on an exclusively Jewish state as distinct from a state in which all enjoy equal rights.
   
   
5. Peace will only come with a just settlement. The Israeli government's policies do not represent justice. It has sustained pressure on Palestinians to break their will to return; to exclude them; and to appropriate for Jewish Israelis the land from the River Jordan to the sea.

[Alikado]

Quote Hamble
"If a Radical Islamic Terrorist group helped Irish Catholics commit acts of war in Northern Ireland and the UK to liberate Ireland would you support the Radical Islamic Terrorists?"

Would you expect the UK to defend Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK?
If not and the Radical Islamic Terrorists liberated Northern Ireland would you expect peace or dead Christians?

You are altering the question again.

[Hamble]

1. Whose "understanding"? Understanding of what, exactly? Non-Jewish residents in Israel are not accorded equal standing.
   ______________________________________________________________________________ Basic Law: Israel – The Nation State of the Jewish People
   1. Basic principles
   

   1. The Land of Israel is the historic national home of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.
   2. The State of Israel is the national state of the Jewish people, in which it exercises its natural, cultural, and historic right to self-determination.
   3. Exercising the right to national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
   ______________________________________________________________________________
   
   
2. Palestinians march and demonstrated for a just settlement. Applying the 1947 boundaries might just about permit two viable states. But that is debatable and in any case it is what the fighting has been about for 7½ decades.
   
   
3. "Hamas …in Gaza and Fatah …in the rest of Palestine" — these are political entities; they are NOT the Palestinian people.
   
   
4. Emphatically I do not agree! Except that the Israeli government policy appears to insist on an exclusively Jewish state as distinct from a state in which all enjoy equal rights.
   
   
5. Peace will only come with a just settlement. The Israeli government's policies do not represent justice. It has sustained pressure on Palestinians to break their will to return; to exclude them; and to appropriate for Jewish Israelis the land from the River Jordan to the sea.

I disagree.

This article gives a bit more background history on the factions struggling for power in Palestine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13331522

Peace will not come from Hamas.
In 2005 Gaza was conceded for peace. 8,000 Jewish settlers from the 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip were relocated .
The same year Hamas took over the Palestinian enclave of Gaza.

[Hamble]

You are altering the question again.

?
I quoted myself.

What is the matter with you?


Quote Hamble
"If a Radical Islamic Terrorist group helped Irish Catholics commit acts of war in Northern Ireland and the UK to liberate Ireland would you support the Radical Islamic Terrorists?"


No change.

[sandGroundZero]

Regarding post #111: You deflect.

Hamas is a political entity which owes its existence to the imbalance of power between the Israeli state and the Palestinians. The thinking seems to be that if the situation can be 'managed ' long enough, then Israel's piecemeal expansion can claim its de facto control of all of the land west of the River Jordan irreversible and non-negotiable!

Israel is attempting to quell and ultimately displace the remainder of non-Jewish residents inside Israel's boundaries, and outside in what is left of the Palestinian West Bank. Israelis' position on Gaza is perplexing. It appears to promote a 'pressure cooker ', perhaps in the hopes that Gaza residents' violence will turn inward — an horrific prospect!

Israel's government claims to want peace, but its terms are inherently unfair. In the meantime, it ratchets up the pressure on Palestinians and panders to extremism within the ranks of its ultra-nationalist supporters. Again, it is militancy among the Jewish population and not Hamas per se which is the ultimate obstacle to peace.

[said]

Israel is the USA's/ UK's strategically placed ally.

[Hamble]

Regarding post #111: You deflect.

Hamas is a political entity which owes its existence to the imbalance of power between the Israeli state and the Palestinians. The thinking seems to be that if the situation can be 'managed ' long enough, then Israel's piecemeal expansion can claim its de facto control of all of the land west of the River Jordan irreversible and non-negotiable!

Israel is attempting to quell and ultimately displace the remainder of non-Jewish residents inside Israel's boundaries, and outside in what is left of the Palestinian West Bank. Israelis' position on Gaza is perplexing. It appears to promote a 'pressure cooker ', perhaps in the hopes that Gaza residents' violence will turn inward — an horrific prospect!

Israel's government claims to want peace, but its terms are inherently unfair. In the meantime, it ratchets up the pressure on Palestinians and panders to extremism within the ranks of its ultra-nationalist supporters. Again, it is militancy among the Jewish population and not Hamas per se which is the ultimate obstacle to peace.

Again we have different opinions.

Hamas grew out of The Muslim Brotherhood thriving before Palestinians
gained (Jew free) Gaza for peace.
Egypt massacred all its Muslim Brotherhood supporters.

Therefore Hamas grew out of Egypt's intolerance of Radical Islamic Terrorists.

Israel has a democratic Knesset.
If you look it up this week you will find elected to Arab Muslim equivalent of our MP's.
That is something to celebrate.

You did not specify which laws of equality for Arab/Muslim in Israel specifically you mean?

[local]

I disagree.

This article gives a bit more background history on the factions struggling for power in Palestine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13331522

Peace will not come from Hamas.
In 2005 Gaza was conceded for peace. 8,000 Jewish settlers from the 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip were relocated .
The same year Hamas took over the Palestinian enclave of Gaza.

Or,

in 2005, when it removed all 8,000 settlers from the Gaza Strip. Israel decided these small, isolated settlements were too difficult to defend in a territory where the Jewish residents accounted for less than 1 percent of the population.

[Hamble]

Or,

in 2005, when it removed all 8,000 settlers from the Gaza Strip. Israel decided these small, isolated settlements were too difficult to defend in a territory where the Jewish residents accounted for less than 1 percent of the population.

How sad if true.

So Israel builds a wall around the area it can defend from racist attacks.

[local]

How sad if true.

So Israel builds a wall around the area it can defend from racist attacks.

I suppose the Palestinians would like to build a wall to protect themselves from racist attacks.

Their bully though is big, powerful and has some friends in high places not least in America.

[Hamble]

I suppose the Palestinians would like to build a wall to protect themselves from racist attacks.

Their bully though is big, powerful and has some friends in high places not least in America.

Would that be the same 'bully' Hamas happily accepts donations from from?

Quote................
On 25 January 2006, the Islamist organization, Hamas, which is considered by the main donor countries to be a terrorist organization, won the Palestinian legislative elections and formed government on 29 March 2006, without accepting the terms and conditions set by the Quartet.[55] This resulted in the imposition of economic sanctions against the PA, including near cessation of direct relations and aid between most bilateral donors and the PA, with only some multilateral agencies and a few donors continuing direct contact and project administration.[56] The Quartet's decision was criticised by the Quartet's former envoy, James Wolfensohn, who characterized it "a misguided attempt to starve the Hamas-led Palestinians into submission," and of UN's Middle East former envoy, Alvaro de Soto.[57]

Because of the worsening humanitarian crisis, the EU proposed a plan to channel aid directly to the Palestinians, bypassing the Hamas-led government. The Quartet approved the EU proposal, despite an initial US objection, and the EU set up a "temporary international mechanism" (TIM) to channel funds through the Palestinian President for an initial period of three months, which was later extended.[58] Oxfam was one of the main critics of the EU TIM program arguing that "limited direct payments from the European Commission have failed to address this growing crisis."[59]

The emergence of two rival governments in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in June 2007 presented the international community with the prospect of shouldering a huge aid burden.[60] The World Bank estimated that in 2008 the PNA would need $1.2 billion in recurrent budget support, in addition to $300 million in development aid.[61] The formation of the emergency government in mid-2007 in the West Bank led by Salam Fayyad, led to the resumption of aid to the West Bank PA government which partly reversed the impact of the aid boycott.[62] Nevertheless, economic indicators have not changed considerably. For instance, because of the situation in Gaza, real GDP growth was estimated to be about -0.5% in 2007, and 0.8% in 2008.[63]

According to the Development Assistance Committee, the main multilateral donors for the 2006–2007 period were UNRWA and the EU (through the European Commission), while the main bilateral donors were the US, Japan, Canada and five European countries (Norway, Germany, Sweden, Spain and France).[5]
"In 2010, the lion's share of the aid came from the European Union and the United States. According to estimates made by the World Bank, the PA received $525 million of international aid in the first half of 2010......................
In February 2019, the US stopped all USAID to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. The US stopped providing more than $60m in annual funds for the Palestinian security services at the request of the PA because of a fear of lawsuits following the enactment of the Anti-Terrorism Clarification Act of 2018 (ATCA), which came into force in February 2019, and allows Americans to sue in US courts those receiving US foreign aid over alleged complicity in "acts of war".[84] The stopping of funding for security services has raised some concerns.[85]

In November 2019, the Netherlands cut the US$1.5 million per annum it paid directly to the Palestinian Authority over payments it makes to families of militants killed, hurt, or imprisoned by Israel (described by Israel as salaries to terrorists)...........


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...o_Palestinians

[Polly Trott]

While some people think the right to publish images of Mohammed is incredibly important there are other incidents of censorship that we need to give some thought to - https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/06/02...new-precedent/