Cancel Brexit ?

[bensherman]

I fully concur that our political systems have become detached from people as a whole. Some of that is for understandable reasons, and some of it isn't.

But to respond to that by adopting Brexit in the UK, and Trump in the US, is not a sane response. Not least because the people who had that grievance are the people who will be most hurt by the consequences of those decisions.

It is like objecting to a bumpy flight by installing the loudmouth at the back of the plane to fly it. After all, how hard can it be?

And most ironic of all in this country it has led to the installation of a government even more detached from the rest of us and embedded in a very narrow elite of the rich.

Please have a look at the level of reasoning of one Brexit voter
https://dorseteye.com/this-is-what-h...RFzGkqHHedw1lo

[Alikado]

All I know is they are doing a great job of killing business off, I have so many suppliers calling me asking if a need anything and am I busy as they are really struggling. I can see a melt down coming very soon.

Your suppliers are going the same way as the High St, they are being squeezed by the Internet, what they supply you with is available online and probably much cheaper, you would be foolish if you ignored it.

[bambi275]

I fully concur that our political systems have become detached from people as a whole. Some of that is for understandable reasons, and some of it isn't.

But to respond to that by adopting Brexit in the UK, and Trump in the US, is not a sane response. Not least because the people who had that grievance are the people who will be most hurt by the consequences of those decisions.

It is like objecting to a bumpy flight by installing the loudmouth at the back of the plane to fly it. After all, how hard can it be?

And most ironic of all in this country it has led to the installation of a government even more detached from the rest of us and embedded in a very narrow elite of the rich.

Please have a look at the level of reasoning of one Brexit voter
https://dorseteye.com/this-is-what-h...RFzGkqHHedw1lo

Because one Brexit voter stands for what the other 17.4m people voted for? No thanks, I haven't left OKed at your link but presume it's an absurd point of view of which you could find many Remainers with similarly absurd points of view.

[Toodles McGinty]

Because one Brexit voter stands for what the other 17.4m people voted for? No thanks, I haven't left OKed at your link but presume it's an absurd point of view of which you could find many Remainers with similarly absurd points of view.

How do you think this country will be better off outside the EU?

You say there were lies on both sides, which I'll agree with to a point, but remainers know exactly what being in the EU involves, as they've lived it for 40 odd years. Leavers do not. So lying about leaving the EU and lying about remaining aren't quite the same in my book. Don't get me wrong, lies are lies. It's just that some are more easily discounted than others.

So what is going to improve with Brexit?

[Ceam]

Your suppliers are going the same way as the High St, they are being squeezed by the Internet, what they supply you with is available online and probably much cheaper, you would be foolish if you ignored it.

My suppliers are internet and phone based.

[Alikado]

My suppliers are internet and phone based.

But you can bypass them by going closer back to manufacturer

[gazaprop]

I fear that 'Liberal Elite' is a phrase used solely to rail against anything left or centre left. Usually prefaced with 'so called', who exactly are this 'liberal elite'? Is there a 'conservative elite'? Are there 'so called conservative elite' politicians?

Then you have 'metropolitan elite', which might include a lot of those on the right. Or North London metropolitan elite, which some take as an antisemitic slur.

I've googled 'liberal elite' and time and again it appears in right wing media as some kind of dog whistle. Say it enough and it's guaranteed to raise the hackles of those who are already conservative. Tell people over and over, then it's followed by those 'left behind'. I've used the phrase myself. Again, who exactly are 'left behind'? It seems those 'left behind' are being told they are 'left behind' by particularly right wing politicians and media. It was used over and over to reach the middle states in Trump's campaign. Places of high unemployment in mining towns or industrial areas that are no longer viable.

So say 'left behind' enough, and people believe it. And then vote for the very opposite of those traditionally supportive of the working class. Clever politics, but entirely hollow. Has the US rust belt had a surge in employment? Or are they still 'left behind', only rabidly supporting billionaires who have no interest in them?

Then here, the 'left behind' seem to be in high areas of unemployment that have remained so despite being governed, for 9 years, by those raging again against the 'liberal elite'. Let's assume that the liberal elite in this country are the Labour party. Who aren't really elite in any way. But say it enough and all the troubles of the 'left behind' lie with a party that hasn't been in power for 9 years. Why are they still 'left behind'? Oh well, Gordon Brown...

Who left them behind, and why, after nine years of government by the kindly, all embracing, never-leave-anyone-behind, right wing, are they still left behind?

And who, exactly, are the 'liberal elite'?

If you look at my post in the round instead of cherry picking the bits which raise your ire - I think it's self evident whom I believe to be the 'liberal elite' - it's practically all of them.
In the context of my post it is those opposing all options put before them mainly for tribal reasons - I think you'll find that encompasses all from 'Farage's blackshirts - to Corbyn's trotskyites -(tongue in cheek alert).

There are many arguments for and against whichever Administration was at the helm at any given time - arriving at a conclusion on who was or is right very much depends on ones own political bent and how things are reported and believed.

My point about the 'left behinds', as you put it, wasn't defending them or extolling them - it was highlighting the fact that these pockets of the electorate are real and many.
They will also turn out en masse to vote for policies which they believe will bring back 1958.
Put bluntly - the 'liberal elite' are the majority of the 'political elite'. It is believed by a significant amount of the population that this same elite have, for a long long time, overlooked and ignored them.

In a previous post of yours, you referenced the rise of Nazi Germany as a parallel to what is happening in this country. I have to say that the analogy was, in my opinion, rather fanciful in suggesting Britain was headed on the same track but - the principle is very apposite.

The central point I was making is that there is a large portion of the electorate which will turn out and vote in someone who they believe will 'give them their country back'.
We might not like it but I firmly believe the 'liberal elite' have seriously misjudged the mood of a significant section of the electorate on this point.

It therefore follows that, at the impending general election, the 'better offs', the young, the newly affluent property owning classes had better put their cappuccinos, chardonnays, proseccos and craft lagers down and actually be arsed to vote!

[Toodles McGinty]

If you look at my post in the round instead of cherry picking the bits which raise your ire - I think it's self evident whom I believe to be the 'liberal elite' - it's practically all of them.
In the context of my post it is those opposing all options put before them mainly for tribal reasons - I think you'll find that encompasses all from 'Farage's blackshirts - to Corbyn's trotskyites -(tongue in cheek alert)...


...It therefore follows that, at the impending general election, the 'better offs', the young, the newly affluent property owning classes had better put their cappuccinos, chardonnays, proseccos and craft lagers down and actually be arsed to vote!

Not cherry picking. Not even answering your post. Your post genuinely made me think that that term 'liberal elite' has been bandied around for about a decade or so, that I've noticed. Probably for decades. And has particularly been prevalent in right wing papers since Brexit, but was noticeable during Miliband's leadership of the Labour party.

I wasn't really questioning your post, more musing about the content. I'd reckon there are those in power at the moment who see Cameron and Osbourne as 'liberal elite' in comparison to the ERG, say. In this country I'm not sure who it targets. I wouldn't put Corbyn or McDonnell down as very elite. Quite the opposite. In the USA it seems to apply to educated moderates. I don't think they actually get very 'liberal' there. Apart from Bernie.

As with the 'left behinds' that seem to think that leaving the EU will solve something. Or voting for the Brexit party. As I asked, who exactly has left them behind? The general idea seems to be that Labour has left them behind, but as they aren't in power, I'm not sure what they could do, if you see what I mean.

I suppose they are all terms intended to get a visceral reaction out of certain sections of society. Repeated often enough like the current 'no surrender' and 'get Brexit done', they seep into the intend target's subconscious.

Apart from my musing about terms, I do agree with most of what you said.

Got me thinking, anyway.

[gazaprop]

Not cherry picking. Your post genuinely made me think that that term 'liberal elite' has been bandied around for about a decade or so, that I've noticed. Probably for decades. And has particularly been prevalent in right wing papers since Brexit, but was noticeable during Miliband's leadership of the Labour party.

I wasn't really questioning your post, more musing about the content. I'd reckon there are those in power at the moment who see Cameron and Osbourne as 'liberal elite' in comparison to the ERG, say. In this country I'm not sure who it targets. I wouldn't put Corbyn or McDonnell down as very elite. Quite the opposite. In the USA it seems to apply to educated moderates. I don't think they actually get very 'liberal' there. Apart from Bernie.

As with the 'left behinds' that seem to think that leaving the EU will solve something. Or voting for the Brexit party. As I asked, who exactly has left them behind? The general idea seems to be that Labour has left them behind, but as they aren't in power, I'm not sure what they could do, if you see what I mean.

I suppose they are all terms intended to get a visceral reaction out of certain sections of society. Repeated often enough like the current 'no surrender' and 'get Brexit done', they seep into the intend target's subconscious.

Got me thinking, anyway.

With 'the left behinds' I think one result of leaving the EU will be this - the jobs they were too lazy to do in the first instance will go back to 'vacancy not filled'. The net effect of this will be to move production abroad - maybe then we can hope they won't be arsed getting out of bed to vote.

If you're looking for support in not allowing the general public to vote on extremely dangerous matters then Winston Churchill is your man.
He said - and I'm probably paraphrasing here - 'if one is looking for an argument against democracy then one only needs to spend five minutes with the average voter'.

[Toodles McGinty]

With 'the left behinds' I think one result of leaving the EU will be this - the jobs they were too lazy to do in the first instance will go back to 'vacancy not filled'. The net effect of this will be to move production abroad - maybe then we can hope they won't be arsed getting out of bed to vote.

If you're looking for support in not allowing the general public to vote on extremely dangerous matters then Winston Churchill is your man.
He said - and I'm probably paraphrasing here - 'if one is looking for an argument against democracy then one only needs to spend five minutes with the average voter'.

True that.

Playing Devil's advocate for a moment, perhaps one result of being in the EU has been that certain employers have had a steady stream of foreigners willing to work for less than minimum wage.

I think that the idea of people being simply too lazy to work is exaggerated. I've no doubt there are those who just won't work, though how they exist on Job Seekers Allowance is beyond me. Last I looked that was about £73 a week. Or how they even qualify for it if they won't work is a mystery. And jobs 'in the hand' are few and far between nowadays. I remember when you could get a bar job or cleaning job anywhere cash in hand. Showing my age now.

Now that EU workers are moving out, I don't know who will be willing to do those jobs that the British seemingly won't do. The farm work for example. The building trade without foreigners? Crikey.

I'm with Churchill on this. It was far too complicated to place in the hands of a generally ignorant public. That isn't meant to be an insult. As I wrote on another post, the most Googled phrase the day after the referendum was 'What is the EU'. And considering it's taken over three years and it seems the only way out is to leave without a deal or remain, it was too complicated for our politicians too. The only experts on the EU are specialist lawyers or the EU council themselves.

I don't know the answer. I just know that leaving the EU won't improve the lives of the likes of us.

[local]

True that.

Playing Devil's advocate for a moment, perhaps one result of being in the EU has been that certain employers have had a steady stream of foreigners willing to work for less than minimum wage.

I think that the idea of people being simply too lazy to work is exaggerated. I've no doubt there are those who just won't work, though how they exist on Job Seekers Allowance is beyond me. Last I looked that was about £73 a week. Or how they even qualify for it if they won't work is a mystery. And jobs 'in the hand' are few and far between nowadays. I remember when you could get a bar job or cleaning job anywhere cash in hand. Showing my age now.

Now that EU workers are moving out, I don't know who will be willing to do those jobs that the British seemingly won't do. The farm work for example. The building trade without foreigners? Crikey.

I'm with Churchill on this. It was far too complicated to place in the hands of a generally ignorant public. That isn't meant to be an insult. As I wrote on another post, the most Googled phrase the day after the referendum was 'What is the EU'. And considering it's taken over three years and it seems the only way out is to leave without a deal or remain, it was too complicated for our politicians too. The only experts on the EU are specialist lawyers or the EU council themselves.

I don't know the answer. I just know that leaving the EU won't improve the lives of the likes of us.

The £73 is pitiful but it does allow the rest of the benefits to follow .

If your hell bent on living the sort of lives most of us wouldn't then the benefit system can be wrung dry.

The gradual increase of the minimum wage is about time too many employers let the tax payer subsidise low wages.

The Australian style immigration system proposed will deal with shortages in the industries you mention.

[2STEPS-IN-FRONT]

We are where we are for a number of reasons not least of which is the sheer arrogance of the 'liberal elite' in calling for a Referendum which they quite simply couldn't lose.
Having had that Referendum the same 'liberal elite' has conspired to thwart the wishes of the people at every turn.
At the heart of this is the tribal system of politics we have in this country. Labour would no more vote for a Conservative deal than ban the singing of the Red Flag at Conference - the same with the Conservatives for any deal brought before the house by Labour.
Anyone believing there could be any meaningful level of consensus on this matter is quite frankly deluded.

To constantly harp on about 'lies' and 'liars' making people vote as they did is far too simplistic a view - do those proffering that argument honestly believe it? Are they seriously asking us to believe millions of people were duped into voting as they did?
Whilst lies or, bending the truth or, being economical with the facts - whatever handle is put upon it had a bearing on the result - the underlying root of why leave won is not simply lies.

For decades an entire class of people have been ignored by the 'political elite'. Invariably this class inhabits ex-industrial communities with high unemployment and low prospects. Usually these communities have experienced high levels of immigration which hasn't always changed their way of life for the better.
This discontent has been fanned by the likes of Farage and real anger was expressed in the vote to leave.

Added to this the 'better offs', the young, the newly affluent property owning classes simply couldn't be arsed to vote and so ...................

I also fear that if the 'Liberal Elite' believe they have this in the bag then they also, are sadly deluded.
I believe that the mood of the Electorate is being greatly underestimated and come a General Election Johnson will galvanise those who believe they are disenfranchised against the arrogance of the Liberal Elite.
Will that be a good thing? Only history will tell.

I for one believe the facts from The Great Hack far more than political dribble spilling from the mouths of Parliament ,it seems even the judges agree the vote was tainted
Its just people so scared to believe it, the vote was not a fair representation of peoples democratic rights .
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...dum-vote-leave

[local]

There have only been two votes on leaving the Europe, 1975 when the result was an overwhelming result was remain and 2016 when a narrow majority voted Leave. At no time did anybody vote for No Deal, Leave was to trigger Article 50 to Negotiate Leaving Terms.

Of course I forgot the pub Landlord with his Brexit Party and their quite unbelievable success in the Euro Elections.

Mr Farage's party won 29 seats, the Lib Dems 16, Labour 10, the Greens seven, the Tories four, the SNP three, and Plaid Cymru and the DUP one each.


Where they won by a country mile so that's 4 times people have had a chance to express their opinion.

And whatever way you spin it at no point did the electorate let a remain party anywhere near the winning post.

[Alikado]

Of course I forgot the pub Landlord with his Brexit Party and their quite unbelievable success in the Euro Elections.

Mr Farage's party won 29 seats, the Lib Dems 16, Labour 10, the Greens seven, the Tories four, the SNP three, and Plaid Cymru and the DUP one each.


Where they won by a country mile so that's 4 times people have had a chance to express their opinion.

And whatever way you spin it at no point did the electorate let a remain party anywhere near the winning post.

The Tories & Labour only made a token effort of campaigning in the Euros and is not the fact that the Tories albeit lost their majority in the GE a condemnation of Brexit?

[local]

The Tories & Labour only made a token effort of campaigning in the Euros and is not the fact that the Tories albeit lost their majority in the GE a condemnation of Brexit?

Nice try but if the people were so incensed by Brexit then they had a choice the Lib Dems .

The people clearly voted out of frustration that we are still in and with May most people at the time thought it was a done deal to leave.

Even now the opinion polls have the dysfunctional Boris way ahead of the remain supporters.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/polls