No Deal Brexiters.

[Hamble]

How does 'No Deal' sound better than Remain? I assume you read post #18? Here's another person breaking it down into simple points

1/ If we end up solely on WTO rules, then we need a hard border in Ireland. That risks peace, stability, and the Union. Plus we don't have any time to build the infrastructure required. Like, nowhere NEAR enough time. And there aren't any "alternative arrangements", I promise. They don't exist. There isn't a single border in the world that has any. And that means a hard border.

2/ If we rely on WTO rules for trade, then we need to apply tariffs to imports. And expect that other countries will apply tariffs to our exports. That makes things more expensive for us to buy, and makes our businesses less able to compete. Not really sure how this is a win.

3/ If we decide we're not going to apply tariffs to imports at all, then we lose all leverage for negotiating future trade deals. What on earth would we offer them?? We've already given them free access to our market.

4/ If we decide we're not going to apply tariffs to imports at all, then we destroy our own producers - why would you carry on trying to run a farm produce business when the market is flooded with much cheaper products from abroad?

5/ If we decide to only reduce tariffs on products from the EU, then the Most Favoured Nation clause (WTO rules) kicks in - this says that you can't offer more favourable terms to one bloc, and not everyone else. So - no tariffs from the EU, means no tariffs from anyone. See points 3 and 4.

6/ If you were looking forward to getting your bendy bananas back, then tough ****; this rule didn't come from the EU (no matter what Boris told you), it came from the WTO - specifically, the Codex Alimentarius. So, no change there. Except now bananas are extortionately expensive, because, well, tariffs.

7/ If you're relying on the idea that there's an obscure WTO rule that says we can just carry on trading with the EU on the same terms we have now for 10 years, then tough **** again - this isn't correct. The "rule" is Article XXIV of the GATT, and is specifically an allowance for deviating from the MFN (see 5) because you and another bloc are working towards implementing your bilateral trade deal. It requires an end point - a fully thrashed out trade agreement. It is specifically NOT a clause that comes into play when you decide to drop out of a trading arrangement.

8/ If one of the benefits of "going WTO" is that we can make our own rules, then I can understand that. We could decide, unilaterally, that it's too expensive for us to produce electronics with an earthing wire, so we're not going to insist on that anymore. Cool. But then we can't sell our products to our closest trading neighbours. We want to sell stuff to the EU, we need to follow their rules. Except now we don't get a say in what they are.

9/ Having a "world trade deal" sounds quite attractive - quite romantic. The idea of Britain going out on her own, bravely forging links with faraway lands - it's quite appealing. Except trade doesn't work like that. There's a gravity towards your closest neighbours - proximity is important. I'm more likely to sell something to France than I am to Australia - I can get it there quicker, for example, and for a much lower cost. There is no nation on earth - none - that have prioritised trading with distant countries instead of those geographically closest. We're about to be the first - which will involve a pretty brutal lesson in the realities of logistics.

10/ If we go WTO, then we need to check goods coming into our internal market - including those from the EU. We don't have the infrastructure to do this. Nor do we have the staff. Nor the time. Plus - and this is deeply ironic - once we leave the EU, the pool of people from which we can recruit to do this essential work becomes much, much smaller. Do we have enough vets to perform the necessary checks on livestock coming into the country, for example? No. Where do we normally recruit them from? The EU. Ah, ****.

11/ A No Deal exit was never on the cards during the campaign. It is simply all that is left, once logic and reality strip away all the lies that we were told about Brexit. No, German car manufacturers haven't been knocking on Merkel's door demanding a trade deal with the UK. No, the EU doesn't need us more than we need them. No, we don't hold all the cards. None of that was true. It was never going to be true. But rather than facing up to reality, the rhetoric has just become more and more extreme. If you're dealt a bad hand in a game of poker - if the river turns against you - you don't HAVE to go all in. There are other options. You don't need to claim that was what you intended to do all along.

How is any of that better than remaining in the worlds largest single market? Leaving, as another poster has stated, only benefits those who want deregulation on workers' rights, on health and safety, on manufacturing or importing goods that just wouldn't be allowed under EU standards. You know, the chlorinated chicken?

Don't get me wrong, I think the EU is in drastic need of reform. It needs a long hard look at how it's become top heavy in administration. But as a nation, and as individuals, we are going to be worse off out than in. The sunlit uplands don't exist. If it is even possible to be better off outside the EU eventually, it'll take decades. And that's if we could ever return to being a manufacturing nation after it was systematically asset stripped in the 80s. Let's face it, it's highly unlikely. So if you are one of the 1%, I've no doubt you'll relish the prospect. But if you're one of the 99%, who've been led by the nose by 1%-ers, you're not going to be any better off. And if you think you are, then you've far less sense than I thought.

And it isn't about 'hating' Britain. It's about not wanting to shoot ourselves in the foot. Why not have the best we can rather than struggle? I want Britain to have the best.

I think you have muddled up the word Eutopia.

[The PNP]

A) End of free movement(and all the dissads it brings).

B) EU Citizens will have to register if they intend to stay in the UK.

C) The Tory's can put zero tax on sanitary products.

A) That's the part about leaving that I most object to...losing my right to Europe-wide free movement. Apart from being allowed out temporarily on a holiday visa, I will become a virtual prisoner on this island.

B) Some of my best customers are originally from mainland-Europe...I can see some deciding to 'go home' because of Brexit.

C) Gee whizz!

[Toodles McGinty]

I think you have muddled up the word Eutopia.

Not Utopia. But which points do you dispute?

[Hamble]

Not Utopia. But which points do you dispute?

Ending free movement clinches all but one reason because it will encompass so much change for good.

The other reason-the Irish Border will be the EU's problem should we leave with a no deal Brexit.

Everything else including your list are possibilities good and bad no one can predict fully.
Looking at the EU failures and other member state problems I still would rather leave with no deal than remain.

[silver fox]

End of free movement(and all the dissads it brings).

EU Citizens will have to register if they intend to stay in the UK.

The Tory's can put zero tax on sanitary products.

Remember free movement cuts both ways, free movement only equals freedom to travel and WORK, it isn't and never has been freedom to choose benefits.

I would be more impressed if non EU immigration was better controlled.

On the subject of sanitary products, in 2015 we had the opportunity to apply discretionary 0% to some items, sanitary products were voted out by your beloved Cons.

[Hamble]

Remember free movement cuts both ways, free movement only equals freedom to travel and WORK, it isn't and never has been freedom to choose benefits.

I would be more impressed if non EU immigration was better controlled.

On the subject of sanitary products, in 2015 we had the opportunity to apply discretionary 0% to some items, sanitary products were voted out by your beloved Cons.

Because removing the Tampon Tax would be illegal under EU Law?

https://www.huwmerriman.org.uk/remov...itary-products

[silver fox]

Ending free movement clinches all but one reason because it will encompass so much change for good.

The other reason-the Irish Border will be the EU's problem should we leave with a no deal Brexit.

Everything else including your list are possibilities good and bad no one can predict fully.
Looking at the Hi EU failures and other member state problems I still would rather leave with no deal than remain.

I would dispute the great benefit from ending free movement.

The Irish border is very much our problem.

Our own failures are very much self generated, will probably get much worse long before they get better, so what are the EU failures?

[said]

A) That's the part about leaving that I most object to...losing my right to Europe-wide free movement. Apart from being allowed out temporarily on a holiday visa, I will become a virtual prisoner on this island.

B) Some of my best customers are originally from mainland-Europe...I can see some deciding to 'go home' because of Brexit.

C) Gee whizz!

You will not lose your right to travel to Europe. All countries rely heavily on tourism. There may be different rules at the borders if there has been no deal agreed. Ensure that you have at least nine months left before your passport expires and length of stay would depend on any visa's issued by each country.

[Hamble]

Remember free movement cuts both ways, free movement only equals freedom to travel and WORK, it isn't and never has been freedom to choose benefits.

I would be more impressed if non EU immigration was better controlled.

On the subject of sanitary products, in 2015 we had the opportunity to apply discretionary 0% to some items, sanitary products were voted out by your beloved Cons.

Free movement = permission to move to the UK without a job/means of support.

[salus.populi]

Free movement = permission to move to the UK without a job/means of support.

We can actually kick such people out but our government choose not to.

[Hamble]

I would dispute the great benefit from ending free movement.

The Irish border is very much our problem.

Our own failures are very much self generated, will probably get much worse long before they get better, so what are the EU failures?

The EU is run by Capitalist's we did not elect on huge tax free pensions.
The EU fixes prices.
The EU is not a level playing field with services provided by government
or in how the Law is applied.

The EU has expanded and developed into an entity more than the UK signed up to on joining.
It's a monster!

[Hamble]

We can actually kick such people out but our government choose not to.

That is because people are clever and the Government gets sued for breaching human rights.

It is not illegal to stay in the UK with out a job -free movement.

A migrant and family can stay with a friend.
With an address one can register in the nhs and enrol children in school.

If the children or at least one parent was born in an EU country or has EU Citizenship they have a right to live in the UK in poverty until they manage to find work and rent a place of their own.

No one(or Tory) is going to remove a family with children in the school system
whether the parent works or not.

[said]

I would dispute the great benefit from ending free movement.

The Irish border is very much our problem.

Our own failures are very much self generated, will probably get much worse long before they get better, so what are the EU failures?

I have no inclination whatever to write an encyclopedia, and would not believe for one moment that the posters on this site would want to read it. Surely it would be far simpler, and only take a few lines to state what benefits the EU has given to the UK, after having been a member for more than forty years?

Just for starters though on EU failures - the EU's application of tariffs has been very unfair. Certain countries within the EU have been allowed to charge very high tariffs on goods for which we all have to pay for 100%. This, the EU claims is to protect industries within those countries while manufacturers in the UK get nothing. This is selected Protectionism.

There are several countries with which the EU deals in which it has not been able to obtain favourable tariffs at all. There are 24 other countries where the EU has to abide by WTO tariffs only.

The EU promised favourable marketing deals for the UK. A recent Government paper provides figures, showing our trade with the rest of the world, conducted under WTO rules only, has been growing far faster than the trade to the EU. For the past twenty years our goods exports to non - EU countries has grown sixteen times faster than those to the EU. Last year alone, the UK had an overall deficit of £72 billion with the EU but a surplus of £42 billion with the rest of the world. If the single market and customs union is so great - how come our goods trade has done so poorly for all those years? Considering the promises made by EU. "The economy is growing, it has now turned a corner, we are over the hard times, next year will bear the fruit of our labours" Only next year never came!

It has become evident that the EU statistics for the Irish economy - show that far from being the figure head of successful member countries, is actually heading for a serious fall.

Every day we read of the severe economic/financial/employment problems in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Cyprus, France, Greece, etc., along with a rise in populist parties, serious protests, and so on. Sure - sounds like the EU is highly successful - not!

[silver fox]

Free movement = permission to move to the UK without a job/means of support.

It also means that those same people CAN be shipped back if they have no means of support, it is not and has never been intended to provide free food and shelter for benefit claimants, we are our own worst enemy, we allow the gangmasters to ship people in on zero hour contracts those people then claim to be working even when their income will not support them, but in order to keep employers sweet a blind eye is turned to the obvious.

This our own fault, do you even faintly believe that stopping free movement from the EU will stop those employers from bringing in the cheapest/disposable labour they can find and of course in the government view, the more Brits forced onto poverty pay the better, looks good on the unemployment figures, doesn't matter that these workers can't afford to live.

[PENTHOUSEJOE]

Didn’t most people vote to leave because of the mass immigration alone. Then every hurdle that the average person would not of thought about got put in the way. Now the country is in turmoil. At least if we do leave many other countries are watching the outcome. What is the future who knows. Hope it’s to our good. The eu don’t want us to leave.