No Deal Brexiters.

[seivad]

NO DEAL is better than May's deal IMO

Too much scaremongering, EU are not going to stop shipping us cars, wine, cheese etc.

Firstly there would be a transition period with no additional custom checks.

But if you leave with no deal, there won't be a transition period.

Theresa May has taken over two years to come up with a pathetic deal, and this is only the withdrawal deal, plus the £39bn divorce deal, and not started any trade talks. Any plc would have sacked her a long time ago.

Ain't that the truth!

[The PNP]

A) No one knows what the future holds

B) but the expectation is for greater marketing competition as we will not be tied to the same rules, more pride in our output since employees will be working for the UK, more private enterprise as confidence grows, leading to more jobs, higher standards, less business pressures and costs, etc., etc.,

C) Devastating loss?? You have to be kidding! There is unrest in every one of the EU member countries, the EU is yesterdays Dodo.

A) Everyone knows beyond any doubt (including yourself?) that UK passport holders will lose all their future rights as citizens of the EU.

B) Can't see what relevance all that airy-fairy that stuff has to the average person tbh.

C) Being prevented from opening a shop/café/bike-hire business (my own dream) or buying a home, attending school, being treated in hospital, taking a job, etc is a devastating loss in anyones books!

[Toodles McGinty]

So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either:[/I]
A) Don't understand what that means
or
[I]B) Are lying to you

Or C: are sticking their fingers in their ears and singing 'la la la'. Even though the WTO rules are there for all to see, they simply ignore the facts. Preferring, instead, to believe such bull **** as 'more pride in our output since employees will be working for the UK'. Employees couldn't give a flying **** about 'working for the UK'. Employees need jobs, affordable prices in the shops, etc.

British government officials repeatedly tried to reform the EU when EU policies were detrimental to the UK - every time, they were ignored.

Like when Cameron agreed a deal to restrict benefit payments to immigrants, but Theresa May, as Home Sec. stuck her oar in to stop it? We were offered preferential treatment for 7 years, but apparently that wasn't good enough. We have preferential terms, as in we aren't in the Eurozone, we aren't in the Schengen zone.

That club should not keep your property either. The EU is saying that the UK would not be involved in the European satellite set up after Brexit - even though the UK has invested a huge amount of money in it.

It's an EU project. It doesn't matter what we've put in, why can't you understand that when we leave the EU, we leave every project we've been involved in? We can't just keep the bits we like, but dismiss those parts we don't.

We're out of the club. Out on our own. But hey, we'll have 'Pride'. When reliance on food banks rises exponentially, we'll have 'sovereignty' (which we had anyway, but Brexiteers like to throw that in). When job losses snowball, we'll be 'standing on our own two feet'.

And on WTO rules, which for some reason, Brexiteers simply will not accept exists in their current form, instead believing that the whole world will beat a path to Britain, trading on favourable terms with us. Rainbows and unicorns. Is it any wonder that the stereotype of a typical leave voter is angry men, over 60, with gammon complexions and fantasies of a Britain that never existed?

Oh, BTW, it's probably going to be 'England' on it's own, rather than 'Britain' pretty soon.

[Hamble]

No Deal sounds better than Remain.

If being in the EU is so great there are a lot of British haters knocking around.

[silver fox]

No Deal sounds better than Remain.

If being in the EU is so great there are a lot of British haters knocking around.

No deal will favour the independent wealthy, those who have already moved investments and business out of the UK and those who wish to tear up those tiresome regulations like employee rights, holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy notice and pay.

Does that make me a British hater? Far from it I want the best for this country and all it's people, not just a select few.

[Rigsby]

and those who wish to tear up those tiresome regulations like employee rights, holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy notice and pay.

You mean like “Zero hours” contracts that are sadly all too common in the UK

[Toodles McGinty]

No Deal sounds better than Remain.

If being in the EU is so great there are a lot of British haters knocking around.

How does 'No Deal' sound better than Remain? I assume you read post #18? Here's another person breaking it down into simple points

1/ If we end up solely on WTO rules, then we need a hard border in Ireland. That risks peace, stability, and the Union. Plus we don't have any time to build the infrastructure required. Like, nowhere NEAR enough time. And there aren't any "alternative arrangements", I promise. They don't exist. There isn't a single border in the world that has any. And that means a hard border.

2/ If we rely on WTO rules for trade, then we need to apply tariffs to imports. And expect that other countries will apply tariffs to our exports. That makes things more expensive for us to buy, and makes our businesses less able to compete. Not really sure how this is a win.

3/ If we decide we're not going to apply tariffs to imports at all, then we lose all leverage for negotiating future trade deals. What on earth would we offer them?? We've already given them free access to our market.

4/ If we decide we're not going to apply tariffs to imports at all, then we destroy our own producers - why would you carry on trying to run a farm produce business when the market is flooded with much cheaper products from abroad?

5/ If we decide to only reduce tariffs on products from the EU, then the Most Favoured Nation clause (WTO rules) kicks in - this says that you can't offer more favourable terms to one bloc, and not everyone else. So - no tariffs from the EU, means no tariffs from anyone. See points 3 and 4.

6/ If you were looking forward to getting your bendy bananas back, then tough ****; this rule didn't come from the EU (no matter what Boris told you), it came from the WTO - specifically, the Codex Alimentarius. So, no change there. Except now bananas are extortionately expensive, because, well, tariffs.

7/ If you're relying on the idea that there's an obscure WTO rule that says we can just carry on trading with the EU on the same terms we have now for 10 years, then tough **** again - this isn't correct. The "rule" is Article XXIV of the GATT, and is specifically an allowance for deviating from the MFN (see 5) because you and another bloc are working towards implementing your bilateral trade deal. It requires an end point - a fully thrashed out trade agreement. It is specifically NOT a clause that comes into play when you decide to drop out of a trading arrangement.

8/ If one of the benefits of "going WTO" is that we can make our own rules, then I can understand that. We could decide, unilaterally, that it's too expensive for us to produce electronics with an earthing wire, so we're not going to insist on that anymore. Cool. But then we can't sell our products to our closest trading neighbours. We want to sell stuff to the EU, we need to follow their rules. Except now we don't get a say in what they are.

9/ Having a "world trade deal" sounds quite attractive - quite romantic. The idea of Britain going out on her own, bravely forging links with faraway lands - it's quite appealing. Except trade doesn't work like that. There's a gravity towards your closest neighbours - proximity is important. I'm more likely to sell something to France than I am to Australia - I can get it there quicker, for example, and for a much lower cost. There is no nation on earth - none - that have prioritised trading with distant countries instead of those geographically closest. We're about to be the first - which will involve a pretty brutal lesson in the realities of logistics.

10/ If we go WTO, then we need to check goods coming into our internal market - including those from the EU. We don't have the infrastructure to do this. Nor do we have the staff. Nor the time. Plus - and this is deeply ironic - once we leave the EU, the pool of people from which we can recruit to do this essential work becomes much, much smaller. Do we have enough vets to perform the necessary checks on livestock coming into the country, for example? No. Where do we normally recruit them from? The EU. Ah, ****.

11/ A No Deal exit was never on the cards during the campaign. It is simply all that is left, once logic and reality strip away all the lies that we were told about Brexit. No, German car manufacturers haven't been knocking on Merkel's door demanding a trade deal with the UK. No, the EU doesn't need us more than we need them. No, we don't hold all the cards. None of that was true. It was never going to be true. But rather than facing up to reality, the rhetoric has just become more and more extreme. If you're dealt a bad hand in a game of poker - if the river turns against you - you don't HAVE to go all in. There are other options. You don't need to claim that was what you intended to do all along.

How is any of that better than remaining in the worlds largest single market? Leaving, as another poster has stated, only benefits those who want deregulation on workers' rights, on health and safety, on manufacturing or importing goods that just wouldn't be allowed under EU standards. You know, the chlorinated chicken?

Don't get me wrong, I think the EU is in drastic need of reform. It needs a long hard look at how it's become top heavy in administration. But as a nation, and as individuals, we are going to be worse off out than in. The sunlit uplands don't exist. If it is even possible to be better off outside the EU eventually, it'll take decades. And that's if we could ever return to being a manufacturing nation after it was systematically asset stripped in the 80s. Let's face it, it's highly unlikely. So if you are one of the 1%, I've no doubt you'll relish the prospect. But if you're one of the 99%, who've been led by the nose by 1%-ers, you're not going to be any better off. And if you think you are, then you've far less sense than I thought.

And it isn't about 'hating' Britain. It's about not wanting to shoot ourselves in the foot. Why not have the best we can rather than struggle? I want Britain to have the best.

[silver fox]

You mean like “Zero hours” contracts that are sadly all too common in the UK

Very much so, zero hour contracts, the entire "gig" economy are all far too common, if we leave the EU under a Tory government I fear those employment conditions will become the norm for the majority.

[Rigsby]

Very much so, zero hour contracts, the entire "gig" economy are all far too common, if we leave the EU under a Tory government I fear those employment conditions will become the norm for the majority.

You talk about what will happen if we leave the EU “and those who wish to tear up those tiresome regulations like employee rights, holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy notice and pay.”

Seems like it’s already happening while we are still in the EU.

[rolling-thunder]

I was under the impression that leave meant just that. Leave the EU straight away and negotiate trade deals afterwards. All the arguing has done is allow all the Rats leave the sinking ship. I believe the arguing and speculation has made the situation worse. The Government doesn't want to leave but they feel they should follow the vote but they are trying to get the deal they want. It wasn't a vote of leave if our Government can get a nice deal. Nor did I believe what I was told about the NHS getting extra funding. I voted leave because I didn't want to be part of a Federal Europe or a Federal Europes future.
The Country will have to rebuild its industrial base and then hope that this time we don't sell it off to foreign countries

[salus.populi]

No Deal sounds better than Remain.

Any examples you can give of what improvements no deal would bring when compared to remaining?

[silver fox]

You talk about what will happen if we leave the EU “and those who wish to tear up those tiresome regulations like employee rights, holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy notice and pay.”

Seems like it’s already happening while we are still in the EU.

Very true, one the very good reasons for ridding ourselves of the current government, certainly out of the EU and with a Tory government that situation will become much worse.

[Hamble]

No deal will favour the independent wealthy, those who have already moved investments and business out of the UK and those who wish to tear up those tiresome regulations like employee rights, holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy notice and pay.

Does that make me a British hater? Far from it I want the best for this country and all it's people, not just a select few.

'Already moved investments and business out?'
So why vote remain?

A great number of people are not happy being in the EU even with all the points you mention so perhaps your list is limited.

It comes down to this cause and effect thing.

There is no pride in being one of the richest countries in the world if in so being the wealth of the poorest is not raised to a level where poverty
is not due to the lack of money.
Free movement of workers = accepting poverty migration and (because the UK cannot discriminate) resources must go to those whose need is greatest.

[Hamble]

Any examples you can give of what improvements no deal would bring when compared to remaining?

End of free movement(and all the dissads it brings).

EU Citizens will have to register if they intend to stay in the UK.

The Tory's can put zero tax on sanitary products.

[said]

Ha!Ha! Is that the best you can do - or was it near bedtime?