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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralAckbar View Post
    As you say, antisemitism does exist (across society) and it is horrific.

    I watched the program, and read (some) of the tweets, but sadly (in my eyes) she loses some credibility with references to "Corbyn's Labour" and other comments which allude to suggest it's all his fault. It is terrible some of the vitriol that some people can receive on Twitter, and very few deserve any of it ... but to suggest in her case it is all down to Corbyn (... I mean, your "emboldening this poison" comment does this as well) is perhaps naive at best.
    I honestly don't think Corbyn is antisemitic. He's very much for a cause. Traditionally a back bencher, fighting for any minority, who's found himself actually leading the party.

    But in his fighting for causes, in this particular case fighting for the rights of Palestinians, being anti-Israeli government actions rather than being anti-Israeli people or anti-Jew, I do think he's emboldened this poison. Not on purpose. But there are obviously those who don't need much of an excuse. I know plenty of Labour members who are pro-Palestine, but would be horrified if they were considered antisemitic. Even those against the wording of the working definition of antisemitism, ie criticism of Israel being antisemitic, would be horrified to be considered as anything but completely pro-equality. I know Jewish members who openly criticise Netanyahu. Those members aren't the problem.

    Perhaps had he stamped out the problem as soon as it arose, this situation wouldn't be as bad. But the 'cult of Corbyn' bunch won't hear a word against him. Tom Watson is currently public enemy number one, rightly or wrongly. If they put that much effort into demanding the heads of antisemites as they are with Watson, it'd all have been cleared up a long time ago.





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  3. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Region View Post
    That's very big of you to say, TM.

    That's a highly unusual, maybe unprecedented, post on this forum - that's for sure!

    Aside from the sake of anyone else, just for the sake of itself the Labour party needs to clean house on this business, once and for all.
    Not big of me, DR. I just like fairness.

    Even though the antisemitism situation has been raging for some time, and I am aware of the efforts being made by Jennie Formby to get through the cases brought to her attention, it is, as you say, time to clean house.

    Watching Ms Oberman today, and reading Hamble's post on here (#220), it hits home how horrific and heartbreaking it must be to be a victim of such racism. To be a victim of that while being a member of a party that is supposed to fight tooth and nail against discrimination is just adding insult to injury.

    I don't know if a different leader would magically make these problems go away. Probably not. And I know that other parties have their own problems with racism, even if not as publicised by the media. The EHCR report should make interesting reading. I hope it exonerates the party. If it finds that the Labour party is institutionally antisemitic, I'm out.

  4. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    Not big of me, DR. I just like fairness.

    Even though the antisemitism situation has been raging for some time, and I am aware of the efforts being made by Jennie Formby to get through the cases brought to her attention, it is, as you say, time to clean house.

    Watching Ms Oberman today, and reading Hamble's post on here (#220), it hits home how horrific and heartbreaking it must be to be a victim of such racism. To be a victim of that while being a member of a party that is supposed to fight tooth and nail against discrimination is just adding insult to injury.

    I don't know if a different leader would magically make these problems go away. Probably not. And I know that other parties have their own problems with racism, even if not as publicised by the media. The EHCR report should make interesting reading. I hope it exonerates the party. If it finds that the Labour party is institutionally antisemitic, I'm out.
    Interestingly Jewish thought on whether a new leader would solve the problem is yes.

    Some people believe Corbyn is a racist.A few like me believe he is backed by antisemitic regime.All agree it ultimately equals the same
    result if Corbyn cannot control or ignores the problem in the pursuit of power.

    Corbyn and the Far left are just a part of the Labour Party which most definitely can survive with a new Leader and move to a moderate Socialism.

    I don't think Mr Hamble or colleagues with similar experiences of racism in the work place will ever speak out for fear of being labelled racist.
    He is fully retired now.

    I can tell you that one day in 2014 we watched an anti Israel march on local TV with some racist and tropes and conspiracy theory banners.

    One face with such a banner was recognised as a most genial guy with a long history of
    receiving services provided by Mr Hambles work.

    A short time later the same guy returned for services without a hint of animosity.

    These acts pull the rug from under a person's feet.
    They are not isolated events of coincidence.

    One big cause of pain is the habit of Far left/Corbyn supporters to keep within the lines of the law in public yet with their own minority group
    continue to teach children and repeat to adults racism/tropes/conspiracy theory.

    Islamaphobia is a separate problem and should not be used to shout down any claims of antisemitism.

  5. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    Not big of me, DR. I just like fairness.

    Even though the antisemitism situation has been raging for some time, and I am aware of the efforts being made by Jennie Formby to get through the cases brought to her attention, it is, as you say, time to clean house.

    Watching Ms Oberman today, and reading Hamble's post on here (#220), it hits home how horrific and heartbreaking it must be to be a victim of such racism. To be a victim of that while being a member of a party that is supposed to fight tooth and nail against discrimination is just adding insult to injury.

    I don't know if a different leader would magically make these problems go away. Probably not. And I know that other parties have their own problems with racism, even if not as publicised by the media. The EHCR report should make interesting reading. I hope it exonerates the party. If it finds that the Labour party is institutionally antisemitic, I'm out.
    I just like fairness too.

    I may come across as "cult of Corbyn" or whatever, but that's because when I saw all the mud being thrown I went away and did a bit of research, forming an informed and measured opinion of the man. I didn't vote for him in the Labour leadership election, and if the same vote occurred tomorrow, with the same candidates as before, I would probably still vote for Andy Burnham. That said, he is the elected Leader of the party I think would best serve my interests, and those of my family, friends, and country, and has my full support.

    On the subject of fairness, how about some perspective - one is one too many, but institutionally antisemitic i think not ... Name:  jprchart.jpg
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    "May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one." - Firefly (TV Series)

  6. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralAckbar View Post
    I just like fairness too.

    I may come across as "cult of Corbyn" or whatever, but that's because when I saw all the mud being thrown I went away and did a bit of research, forming an informed and measured opinion of the man. I didn't vote for him in the Labour leadership election, and if the same vote occurred tomorrow, with the same candidates as before, I would probably still vote for Andy Burnham. That said, he is the elected Leader of the party I think would best serve my interests, and those of my family, friends, and country, and has my full support.
    You don't come across as 'Cult of Corbyn'. That is, as you know, a very small faction in a huge membership. And that membership has no doubt swelled because of Corbyn. As I said, I don't believe he is racist, but the media is using his support of minorities as a weapon and some people are using outrage against that as proof that Jews are in some way damaging him and the party. As Ms Oberman said, she was told that 'You (meaning Jews) are bringing a good man down'. That is simply unacceptable.

    There are two problems running concurrently. One is the idea that Jews are generally attacking the party. The other is the idea that Labour is institutionally antisemitic. Neither can be tolerated and both should be emphatically proven untrue. Then we have the Williamson, Shah, Livingstone and Willsman situations, for a few examples, muddying the waters. Chakrabarti's statements that the disciplinary investigations aren't progressing quickly enough. I doubt the EHCR report will find Corbyn wanting, but I'm not so sure regarding the rest. But that the EHCR should need to investigate means, in my opinion, that something is going very wrong within the party.

  7. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamble View Post
    Interestingly Jewish thought on whether a new leader would solve the problem is yes.

    Some people believe Corbyn is a racist.A few like me believe he is backed by antisemitic regime.All agree it ultimately equals the same
    result if Corbyn cannot control or ignores the problem in the pursuit of power.
    Interesting. Do you have anything to support this?
    "May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one." - Firefly (TV Series)

  8. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    You don't come across as 'Cult of Corbyn'. That is, as you know, a very small faction in a huge membership. And that membership has no doubt swelled because of Corbyn. As I said, I don't believe he is racist, but the media is using his support of minorities as a weapon and some people are using outrage against that as proof that Jews are in some way damaging him and the party. As Ms Oberman said, she was told that 'You (meaning Jews) are bringing a good man down'. That is simply unacceptable.

    There are two problems running concurrently. One is the idea that Jews are generally attacking the party. The other is the idea that Labour is institutionally antisemitic. Neither can be tolerated and both should be emphatically proven untrue. Then we have the Williamson, Shah, Livingstone and Willsman situations, for a few examples, muddying the waters. Chakrabarti's statements that the disciplinary investigations aren't progressing quickly enough. I doubt the EHCR report will find Corbyn wanting, but I'm not so sure regarding the rest. But that the EHCR should need to investigate means, in my opinion, that something is going very wrong within the party.
    I do think that, particularly on this website with quite a few posters (we all know who they are) anyone who tries to defend him gets labelled "Cult of Corbyn" or some other derogatory banner.

    I welcome the EHCR report and the results can't come quick enough for me.... my only issue is that it is only the Labour Party under the microscope as it makes it look like the Labour Party is the problem when it is not - antisemitism is the problem and it is not confined to only one political party.

    EHCR states "We contacted The Labour Party after receiving a number of complaints about allegations of antisemitism in the Party." https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...n-labour-party

    I wonder how many of those complaints had already been investigated by Jennie Formby as, as you will have seen from the chart in an earlier post, of 1106 referrals of antisemitism allegations, 433 had nothing to do with party members and of the 673 left, 220 were dismissed as no evidence of antisemitism was found, and of the 453 cases left only 12 were severe enough to warrant expulsion and 96 suspended.

    One is bad enough. The internal process has been followed and acted upon. I've seen social media comments say things like "oh the process is flawed, there should be more expulsions" but why is that? Does everyone have a number that is deemed acceptable? If it falls short of peoples perceptions does that mean the process is flawed, or does it mean the perceptions are flawed due to mainstream media witchhunts?

    Makes you wonder whether how many of the complaints received by the EHCR fell into those cases which either had nothing to do with Labour Party members, or those cases were no evidence was found at all.

    What do you think about the accusation that, as it's only the Labour Party under investigation, this is all politically motivated and more of a result of the mass mainstream media witchhunt to bring down Corbyn ?
    "May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one." - Firefly (TV Series)

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  10. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralAckbar View Post

    What do you think about the accusation that, as it's only the Labour Party under investigation, this is all politically motivated and more of a result of the mass mainstream media witchhunt to bring down Corbyn ?
    There's been a MSM witch hunt from the moment he was elected, absolutely no doubt about that. There were two reasons that I was delighted at his election in the first place. One was a shift to the left and real Democratic Socialism. The other was that he absolutely terrifies the right and their media outlets.

    He still does. The amount of time that the two Tory leadership candidates recently spent on demonising Corbyn rather than presenting their credentials as potential heads of their party, was a joy to watch. It could only have been more enjoyable had they uttered the phrase 'reds under the bed'.

    Even the phrase 'terrorist sympathiser', when spit out by thick, thick slices of Gammon, is amusing. As you've shown, a quick fact check shows otherwise, but again it's a measure of the power (and fear) behind the mainstream media.

    So there is some merit to the notion that the politically motivated attacks became self fulfilling. Shout 'antisemite' enough, and eventually it could give incentive to those attracted by the idea. The racism in the party is a fractional amount, but still one incident is too many. And for the actress we saw, that is extremely real and terrifying, however it arose in the first place. But yes, it is perfectly plausible that it was politically motivated in the first place.

    We've entered a dark, dark place as far as politics in this country and across the world is concerned.

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  12. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralAckbar View Post
    Interesting. Do you have anything to support this?

    This article out of many says it well.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-anti-semitism

  13. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamble View Post
    A few like me believe he is backed by antisemitic regime.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralAckbar View Post
    Interesting. Do you have anything to support this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamble View Post
    This article out of many says it well.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-anti-semitism
    At first I thought you were suggesting that Corbyn had some sort of "behind the scenes" or subversive individual backer pulling his strings, but having read your example article it appears you are suggesting that it is the Labour Party, as his "backer", as being the antisematic regime.

    What is confusing about this is that even the article you quoted states "most people on the left, and in the Labour Party, are not anti-Semites".

    If I have somehow misunderstood your statement (and it's subsequent supporting link) then please clarify ... but I have to say it's a bit of a reach (and I might add, offensive) to suggest that the Labour Party, as Corbyn's "backer", is an antisemitic regime... as you are by implication tarring every member with the same brush.

    I'm not denying there is a problem with antisemitism within society - and, for it's part, within the Labour Party it IS being actively dealt with... unfortunately the MSM obsession to smear Corbyn has quite likely diminished any credible efforts to cure the antisemitism issue across society as a whole.
    "May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one." - Firefly (TV Series)

  14. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralAckbar View Post
    At first I thought you were suggesting that Corbyn had some sort of "behind the scenes" or subversive individual backer pulling his strings, but having read your example article it appears you are suggesting that it is the Labour Party, as his "backer", as being the antisematic regime.

    What is confusing about this is that even the article you quoted states "most people on the left, and in the Labour Party, are not anti-Semites".

    If I have somehow misunderstood your statement (and it's subsequent supporting link) then please clarify ... but I have to say it's a bit of a reach (and I might add, offensive) to suggest that the Labour Party, as Corbyn's "backer", is an antisemitic regime... as you are by implication tarring every member with the same brush.

    I'm not denying there is a problem with antisemitism within society - and, for it's part, within the Labour Party it IS being actively dealt with... unfortunately the MSM obsession to smear Corbyn has quite likely diminished any credible efforts to cure the antisemitism issue across society as a whole.
    Regime- a sub group in Labour going against the accepted political stance to force their own agenda/far left politics.

    I agree absolutely 'most people on the left and in the Labour party are not antisemitic.'
    The minority counts when it is in control or bullying or vicious and constructive in its antisemitism.

    Regarding msm Boris Johnson has the same treatment.

    One cannot 'cure' antisemitism or other forms of racism.It has to be made antisocial.

  15. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamble View Post

    Regarding msm Boris Johnson has the same treatment.

    Not sure how you can compare the treatment of Johnson with racism or bullying. For a start, he's racist. He's made racist comments. Over and over.

    Nor do I see how the MSM has done anything but represent Johnson as he actually is. He doesn't exactly avoid publicity. He positively courts it. He deliberately messes his hair up and does the Affable Boris show.

    The only comparison I can make with antisemitism and Boris Johnson is that they are both deplorable in varying degrees.

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  17. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    Not sure how you can compare the treatment of Johnson with racism or bullying. For a start, he's racist. He's made racist comments. Over and over.

    Nor do I see how the MSM has done anything but represent Johnson as he actually is. He doesn't exactly avoid publicity. He positively courts it. He deliberately messes his hair up and does the Affable Boris show.

    The only comparison I can make with antisemitism and Boris Johnson is that they are both deplorable in varying degrees.

    You do not need to read misleading reports, nor watch a heavily biased television. Corbyn himself has admitted publicly that he supports the Palestinians in their fight against Israel. Israel is a Jewish democratic, and national state of the Jewish people. Surely that is sufficient to claim that Corbyn is anti semitic?

    Corbyn has also claimed that he is a Marxist sympathiser as many leading Labour members are. Carl Marx was also anti semitic.

  18. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    Not sure how you can compare the treatment of Johnson with racism or bullying. For a start, he's racist. He's made racist comments. Over and over.

    Nor do I see how the MSM has done anything but represent Johnson as he actually is. He doesn't exactly avoid publicity. He positively courts it. He deliberately messes his hair up and does the Affable Boris show.

    The only comparison I can make with antisemitism and Boris Johnson is that they are both deplorable in varying degrees.
    I meant that Boris receives the same scrutiny of his political and personal life as Corbyn.

    I support legislation for 3 strikes and you are out for Politician's.

    Until then the Law of The Land is there for allegations of Racism.

  19. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamble View Post
    I meant that Boris receives the same scrutiny of his political and personal life as Corbyn.

    I support legislation for 3 strikes and you are out for Politician's.

    Until then the Law of The Land is there for allegations of Racism.
    I agree on all points. Definitely.


    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    You do not need to read misleading reports, nor watch a heavily biased television. Corbyn himself has admitted publicly that he supports the Palestinians in their fight against Israel. Israel is a Jewish democratic, and national state of the Jewish people. Surely that is sufficient to claim that Corbyn is anti semitic?

    Corbyn has also claimed that he is a Marxist sympathiser as many leading Labour members are. Carl Marx was also anti semitic.
    Corbyn is a left wing socialist. A Bennite, if you want to pin it down. His policies lend more to Scandinavian Democratic Socialism than Marxism. Has he ever said he's Marxist? Have you read the principals of 'Carl' Marx?

    You can support the right to Palestinian self rule without being antisemitic. Otherwise there are a fair few Jews around the world and Israelis themselves that are 'antisemitic', if that is your definition.

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