Brexit. Should we be worried?

**jonboi** · 16/03/2019 08:55 AM

Let me start by saying I’m not a “Leftie” nor am I a LibDem just in case you want to pick that out of the following:
Who is pushing the Brexit agenda hardest now, and who wants to leave the EU at any cost? the same people who have been working on this for decades and are now emboldened by the results of the referendum held in 2016 and the result of all their subtle propaganda over the decades and which influenced the result of that referendum by cleverly and subtlybrainwashing the public by their drip, drip, drip anti-EU, anti-immigration publicity and articles in the daily press, and even in some local publications across the country. It was a slow, subtle process and which sort of worked, maybe not entirely to the plan, but whichever deal eventually comes from the Brexit process, these people will be able to manipulate it over time to their advantage, so they ultimately win, not immediately but in the end.
A lot of scary propaganda has gone under the bridge, and if there is one thing the general public pick up on it is scaremongering/bad news: immigration, EU “dictating” to the UK, “taking back control” (who exactly is going to have this “control” after Brexit? You and me? I doubt it), all the money we pay into the EU (and we get most of it back anyway). That’s not a criticism of the general public, but a statement of our vulnerability to scaremongering and propaganda being use as a weapon for a specific purpose.
Of whom am I talking? The political far right. The now very public ERG a very right-wing faction within the Conservative Party, and right wing Conservatives who are not a part of the ERG, oh, and don’t forget UKIP and Mr Farage who arguably brought this whole thing to a head by scaring the then PM Mr Cameron into holding the 2016 referendum.
One thing the far right do not like are rules and regulations, those things which make life safe, secure and orderly for us ordinary mortals. Why don’t they like them? Because it puts a restraint on their excesses; they want to make money. Well don’t we all you may say, but with making money comes responsibilities, responsibilities to the people you are selling your product or service to and this is why we have rules and regulations in society and which have evolved over centuries to give safety and order in our lives, without which it would be the law of the jungle where only the strongest (in whatever capacity) survive and at the expense of the weakest. We have seen haven’t we, what big business tries to get away with? Most publicly the VW scandal where emissions testing of their cars was secretly and deliberately manipulated, and this was with the safety reg’s in place! VW deliberately chose to evade them. Tobacco companies are another excellent example, they fought for decades to evade responsibility for their products harming and killing millions of people! Imagine then, a society with reduced regulation to enable freer trade, what might we be subjected to then and which would be harmful to us all in the long term.
I’m not anti-business, and I’m not anti-profit. I’m a business man myself and I like profits, but with that comes your responsibility to the customer/consumer to provide a safe and effective product or service, one that the customer can rely on not to cause them harm and be fit for the purpose for which they have paid. I don’t trade with Europe, but I’m happy to conform to the mutually agreed rules, they keep us all safe, both physically and legally.
This could all go out of the window if we leave the safe regulatory regime of the EU and to which we have contributed. You might suggest that we would regulate ourselves but could you trust certain influences to allow that to the same standard we currently enjoy?
So, should we be worried about Brexit? Yes we should. Any kind of deal is nowhere near as good as the one we currently enjoy within the EU. Coming out we will have to almost start again and all the expense and let’s face it, confusion that that will entail to us all.
It’s clear to me at least, that the UK must remain a part of the EU and for the greater good of us all, and for our young people today, and more importantly for our future generations.
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**Alikado** · 16/03/2019 10:26 AM

Yes we should be worried,after Brexit it won't finish there, the Right Wingers will keep pushing for more & more deregulation & relaxation of standards & regulations. At the start of Brexit it was a case of all EU laws & regs would become enshrined into UK law then after things would be sorted out, this has not happened they are already cherry picking. After Brexit the campaign will start to rid us of all the nasty useless EU regs just like Camerloons ' Bonfire of Quangos' & loosening Planning Rules in favour of big builders under the guise of it being in the interest of the consumer.

**Toodles McGinty** · 16/03/2019 10:44 AM

My attitude to the whole idea of leaving the EU is: what will I get out of this?

How will leaving or remaining in the EU improve my life? My kids lives? My grandkids lives? As far as I can see, and for all the reasons mentioned in the OP, leaving doesn't improve the average person's life at all. It's going to mean higher prices in the shops, for starters. That is beyond any doubt.

I can list an awful lot wrong with the administration of the EU, but as far as I can see, the benefits of membership outweigh leaving.

And, as many EU law experts have told us, the Leave date is only the beginning of the tortuous extraction.

I know that with such a narrow margin of victory, whichever side was in the 48.11% would have raged about it not being enough to determine the fate of the country. It was hardly a landslide. Farage himself said if the margin was so small, a second referendum would be necessary. Until the 'Leave' vote gained that 51+%.

The only positive I can see bout this whole sorry obscenely expensive farce is that I now know an awful lot more about the EU, WTO trading, how utterly incompetent our politicians are, and how the general public can be led by the nose by a few choice slogans and lies.

Sadly it isn't over yet by a long, long way. Regardless of votes, referenda, leave or stay with Norway+++++, whatever. It isn't going to benefit you and me.

**steve** · 16/03/2019 11:13 AM

Quote George Galloway last night...

“Today the British Parliament is an Augean Stable swilling with filth, swilling with betrayal. Parliament has betrayed the British people and until they sweep them away and change that, it looks like we are locked in to the EU for an indeterminate amount of time to come..”

Me, I am totally disheartened by the current state of our political system and selfishly glad I am old now, if I was younger I would fear for my mental health to stress more about the current state of affairs. Not that I do not worry about society in general and of course my children and grand children.

The selfishness of the Tory party is shocking, it truly is for the few. Maybe the right wing element are more afraid of the EU clamping down on our tax havens for the rich.

Theresa May has to be the worst PM ever, poor negotiating, poor call on election and votes, largest defeats, poor management and funding of vital services, back door privatisation of many services, dreadful choice of incompetent ministers, and spends more time at the despatch box attacking Labour for anything and everything when it is the Tories in power since 2010. She typifies the arrogance of her party.

And this week there will be a third vote on her turd of a deal, the second vote on her deal was called a polished turd but still a turd by one of her own MPs this week in the debate. What type of a turd deal is it this week?

We need a general election.

**said** · 16/03/2019 12:19 PM

If that is your view - then you are quite welcome to it. But you are completely wrong! One needs to go right back into History to understand why the EU is totally wrong. I refer to Prussia, and its unification of the various German states, which the German people were told was to create a single market for Free trade. This created a political confederation. The people were told that this was for the benefit of trade and that each state involved would maintain its political identity. The people were mislead - a super state was developed with Prussia taking overall power and no state was allowed to leave the union. Does that sound familiar?

Other similar historical events included the Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire etc., what happened to those? There have been three separate times when a European State has been tried and each of those has likewise failed. Two because Germany did not want others in power over its nation.

Had the EU maintained its trading business solely - no-one would have taken much notice. But when it became obvious that the EU was intruding into people's personal lives - it sounded warning bells in those who knew their history.

All goods imported and manufactured in the UK have always been subject to standards, long before the EU. Unlike many of the member countries own standards, the UK has been constant over this issue.

Remember Zac Goldsmith who contended for the London mayor's position? His father is Sir James Goldsmith - who started the Referendum Party in 1996 or thereabouts. The party only lasted for a short while, three years. But a number of leading politicians remained loyal. At that time, UKIP was coming on to the political scene but was overshadowed by the Referendum Party. UKIP adopted the Referendum policies.

In 1994, Sir James Goldsmith published a book giving his views on the future of the UK under the EU. Long before mass migration took place, he gave a very accurate forecast as to the results that the UK would experience. He gave accurate views on the stagnation of British business and the concept of protectionism which is, and has been occurring for many years.

As a businessman - presumably supporting Remain in the EU - do you want free trade or protectionism? Are the current tariffs significant to you?

Do the people want a superstate? Does the UK want to lose its independence entirely? Do we want to be governed by those who refuse to allow each country its own identity? Do we want the UK to be destroyed by poverty and lack of technology? While the rest of the World continues to move ahead into future developments?

**The PNP** · 16/03/2019 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty

My attitude to the whole idea of leaving the EU is: what will I get out of this?

How will leaving or remaining in the EU improve my life? My kids lives? My grandkids lives? As far as I can see, and for all the reasons mentioned in the OP, leaving doesn't improve the average person's life at all. It's going to mean higher prices in the shops, for starters. That is beyond any doubt.

Same view here....All I stand to get out of leaving, is the loss of my European citizenship. Whilst the UK walking out on our biggest (and geographically closest) trading partner i.e. the EU, makes no economic or logistical sense.

I also don't accept the leavers euro-paranoia about 'loss of sovereignty'. For example, UK retains our national flag/s and our Parliament. By choice, we've not had to drive on the right, or convert speed-limits to kph. The pound is our currency, having opted out of the euro. By choice, we're not part of the Schengen area, etc. As for any further integration e.g. UK joining an EU army, what a load of old cobblers - we'd never agree to join unless/until we wanted to.

STOP BREXIT!

**said** · 16/03/2019 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by silver fox

United States of Europe? Just part of leavers project fear, that will not happen unless we wish it to be so, we still have our currency, parliament, election process, our own laws and courts, we have not joined the Euro Zone, we are not party to Schengen and of course we can still veto proposals which are detrimental to us.

Of course as in any trade association there is a degree of protectionism, this is to protect certain business or production within the EU including the UK, we hear the whines from right wingers that this keeps some prices higher, however when the alternative is to throw our own businesses under a bus, I would be very careful what you wish for.

The EU is far from perfect, but handing deregulated control to a right wing cabal borders on some sort of death wish, overall this country's prospects are much better in the EU than out.

You claim our trade outside the EU is growing quicker than within, you're correct as far as the bare statement goes, however what do you think drives or enables this trade? Let you into a little secret, all of this trade comes from trade deals with the EU which we are party, we have very few if any trade deals relating solely to us, plus some countries, Japan being one major country, have already indicated that they see little point in granting to us the same or similar deals that exist with the EU.

One really must look at the broader picture of the issues with the EU. It is all very well stating that '

we still have our currency, parliament, election process, our own laws and courts...' etc., how long do you think that would be for? The EU was unwilling to listen to ANY of our MP's who tried to elicit better deals for the UK and were totally ignored by the EU commission. Look at how the EU is behaving over the UK wanting to leave - what does this tell you about the organisation? If it was so strong, so good, it would not cause the EU any problem for the UK to leave - it would just agree and that would be that. How on earth did the UK do trade before the EU? History always repeats itself!

**Alikado** · 16/03/2019 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty

I was too young to vote in that referendum, but looking back at reports, particularly Hansard, it was stated clearly by left and right that we were joining an economic and political union:

“But whatever the economic arguments, the House will realise that, as I have repeatedly made clear, the Government’s purpose derives, above all, from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can and indeed must?—?play our full part in it.” Prime Minister Harold Wilson, 2 May 1967. Source: Hansard

“The community which we are joining is far more than a common market. It is a community in the true sense of that term. It is concerned not only with the establishment of free trade, economic and monetary union and other major economic issues, important though these are?—?but also as the Paris Summit Meeting has demonstrated, with social issues which affect us all?—?environmental questions, working conditions in industry, consumer protection, aid to development areas and vocational training.” Source: Illustrated London News. Prime Minister Edward Heath, December 1972

“Fundamental Feelings; with the ideal and vision of what we could do together if we put as much effort into using our freedom in peacetime as we do to defending it against an obvious foe; with a reasonable examination of the prospects for food, trade and jobs; and with the practical consequences that would arise for Britain if , instead of solving our problems as part of a partnership, we withdrew into the unknown.” Margaret Thatcher- Source: Illustrated London News 1975

I know a lot of people thought we would be joining a 'Common Market' for trade only. But like today, people might not have been as informed as they should be.

We did join a Common Market for trade, we later voted in favour of the Maastrich Treaty via a Referendum under John Major for closer Political Union, a step some Countries were very apprehensive about but we accepted first time.

**silver fox** · 16/03/2019 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by said

One really must look at the broader picture of the issues with the EU. It is all very well stating that '

we still have our currency, parliament, election process, our own laws and courts...' etc., how long do you think that would be for? The EU was unwilling to listen to ANY of our MP's who tried to elicit better deals for the UK and were totally ignored by the EU commission. Look at how the EU is behaving over the UK wanting to leave - what does this tell you about the organisation? If it was so strong, so good, it would not cause the EU any problem for the UK to leave - it would just agree and that would be that. How on earth did the UK do trade before the EU? History always repeats itself!

How exactly do we lose our independence? The EU can't just change any of that without our consent, as far as stopping us from leaving the EU, we can walk away at anytime, but we can't simply keep the benefits of membership as well.

What makes you think that we are entitled to special conditions not available to others.

**Little Londoner** · 16/03/2019 06:28 PM

The bottom line is that the majority of the people want out, the majority of MP's want in so WHO do they represent The People who elected them or Themselves?

As for the Pnp nothing is stopping you going the sooner the better whinge and whine at some Dutch Germans or French or if you really want to hit the Top Luxembourg. If you want to be led by a drunken sot from Luxembourg then go and get on with it.

British Politics supposedly the model for the World is a shambles of self centred imbeciles who care not for their electors. Things will change sooner rather than later and we may get a party for the People not the Rich evolving out of this shameful Tory MESS. And hopefully the awful racist Abbott will whisk Corbyn of to a desert island where they can get on with ruining their own lives, after they have first shot the Tory MP's hopefully.

**silver fox** · 16/03/2019 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Little Londoner

The bottom line is that the majority of the people want out, the majority of MP's want in so WHO do they represent The People who elected them or Themselves?

As for the Pnp nothing is stopping you going the sooner the better whinge and whine at some Dutch Germans or French or if you really want to hit the Top Luxembourg. If you want to be led by a drunken sot from Luxembourg then go and get on with it.

British Politics supposedly the model for the World is a shambles of self centred imbeciles who care not for their electors. Things will change sooner rather than later and we may get a party for the People not the Rich evolving out of this shameful Tory MESS. And hopefully the awful racist Abbott will whisk Corbyn of to a desert island where they can get on with ruining their own lives, after they have first shot the Tory MP's hopefully.

Of those who voted a slender majority voted leave, but out of the total electorate, (registered to vote) numbering 64,432,052, a total of 17,410,742 voted to leave.

As far as British Politics is concerned, yes it is a total shambles, so let's have a general election and see just what the people will support.

**said** · 16/03/2019 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Little Londoner

The bottom line is that the majority of the people want out, the majority of MP's want in so WHO do they represent The People who elected them or Themselves?

As for the Pnp nothing is stopping you going the sooner the better whinge and whine at some Dutch Germans or French or if you really want to hit the Top Luxembourg. If you want to be led by a drunken sot from Luxembourg then go and get on with it.

British Politics supposedly the model for the World is a shambles of self centred imbeciles who care not for their electors. Things will change sooner rather than later and we may get a party for the People not the Rich evolving out of this shameful Tory MESS. And hopefully the awful racist Abbott will whisk Corbyn of to a desert island where they can get on with ruining their own lives, after they have first shot the Tory MP's hopefully.

Ha!Ha! I watched the video where Juncker had to be held up to attend an EU meeting, he was so drunk.

**libraryguy** · 16/03/2019 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by silver fox

Get your figures right, of those who voted there was a total of 51.89% for leave, a total of 48.11% to remain, the voting turnout was 72.21%, as a percentage of the electorate the vote for leave was actually 27.06%.

I am not denying there was a slender majority for leave, but it was far from the overwhelming majority to leave that Brexiteers try to present.

Parliament are trying to stop the country from committing suicide as the Tories have now painted us into a corner.

Currently we have the May deal, no deal, scrap the whole thing or go for a another vote, none particularly palatable.

I think you'll find your figures are incorrect.

The total electorate (as of June 2016) was 46,500,001

Out of the total electorate:-
37.44% (17,410,742) voted to Leave
34.71% (16,141,241) voted to Remain
00.06% (25,359) were invalid or blank votes
27.79% (12,922,659) exercised their right not to cast a vote

So however you try to massage the figures in your favour, you can't. Leave won!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_U...hip_referendum

Can we just Leave please

**Sandpies** · 16/03/2019 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by silver fox

Get your figures right, of those who voted there was a total of 51.89% for leave, a total of 48.11% to remain, the voting turnout was 72.21%, as a percentage of the electorate the vote for leave was actually 27.06%.

I am not denying there was a slender majority for leave, but it was far from the overwhelming majority to leave that Brexiteers try to present.

Parliament are trying to stop the country from committing suicide as the Tories have now painted us into a corner.

Currently we have the May deal, no deal, scrap the whole thing or go for a another vote, none particularly palatable.

Mr S Fox, your figures don't add up. The numberl of the people eligible to vote at the 2016 Referendum was 46.5 million and the numbers who voted were, Leave 17.4 million and Remain 16.1 million, the total who voted was therefore 33.5 million. As a percentage of the electorate 37.4% voted leave, while 34.7% voted remain. Those that chose not to vote ( for whatever reason) blew it. It's subjugation on your behalf to infer any thing else.
Leave vote won, end of.

**Little Londoner** · 17/03/2019 12:35 AM

From what I have read the EU have told May they will only extend the exit date IF there is another referendum. So WHO is running this Country. The vote was LEAVE and she should tell them to take a running jump OR has this absolute carnage been the plan all along to keep us in, which will be very foolish of May to lead us into a cul-de-sac and fail to deliver the Peoples wishes.

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