Why are EU leavers so afraid of a people's vote?

**jonboi** · 10/05/2019 09:33 AM

Why are some of those people who voted to leave the EU in 2016 so afraid of a second or confirmatory public vote on any deal the Government comes up with, with regards to the EU? So much has changed since the 2016 Referendum; certainly the circumstances now are not what I thought they would be back in 2016.
Whether you are a die-hard leaver, or equally a die-hard remainder, or anything in between, surely a people’s vote, second referendum, or confirmatory vote, whatever you want to call it is the most democratic way for everyone to affirm or reaffirm their position or even change their minds under these chaotic circumstances.
We are all so much more knowledgeable now about the issues involved in either leaving the EU altogether, or having a partial union with the EU, or any other “solution” that comes up, that we are all in a better position to make a judgement on our own individual position with regards to the EU, a much better position it seems to me than the political parties who are supposed to represent us, and who are totally fragmented over what we do about our membership of the EU.
It’s not about keeping having referendums until we get what we want whatever our individual position, as that will never work anyway. It’s about a final say for the people of this country based on current facts and with the much better information we have today, and did not have in 2016, over what we want to do – stay or go.
We are very lucky to live in a democratic country where we can freely vote for what we believe in, and we should use it. So I say ask the people again, as this is true democracy.
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Lamparilla · 10/05/2019 10:25 AM

If this was a true democracy, May would have accepted the democratic vote of a democratically-elected parliament when she put her deal to them.

As they voted it down, she let them have another go, and another. And this was for exactly the same deal. Any 'people's vote' is going to be for something completely different from the 2016 referendum, with a lot of different voters as well.

Same thing happened with Ireland and the Lisbon Treaty I think it was - the EU kept plugging away until the Irish voted for it.

**local** · 10/05/2019 11:37 AM

No need were having one on the 23rd May.

You will be able to vote for a remain party and show the countries huge swing towards remain.

If that doesn't work you can vote for Change UK or the Liberal Democrats to re-enter the EU.

That's Democracy or are you afraid of Democracy ?

**K-T** · 10/05/2019 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Lamparilla

If this was a true democracy, May would have accepted the democratic vote of a democratically-elected parliament when she put her deal to them.

As they voted it down, she let them have another go, and another. And this was for exactly the same deal. Any 'people's vote' is going to be for something completely different from the 2016 referendum, with a lot of different voters as well.

Same thing happened with Ireland and the Lisbon Treaty I think it was - the EU kept plugging away until the Irish voted for it.

Parliament also voted down No Deal, so I presume you are saying that the democratic option would be to revoke Article 50 and remain?

I have seen no evidence of the EU "plugging away" for another vote - it all seems to be coming from the UK electorate who can see what a disaster we are heading towards if we leave - either with May's awful deal or with no deal.

**Alikado** · 10/05/2019 01:00 PM

If there ever is an acceptance through Parliament and we leave without a second referendum we will be bombarded for years to come to rejoin / have a vote etc.

**said** · 10/05/2019 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by jonboi

Why are some of those people who voted to leave the EU in 2016 so afraid of a second or confirmatory public vote on any deal the Government comes up with, with regards to the EU? So much has changed since the 2016 Referendum; certainly the circumstances now are not what I thought they would be back in 2016.
Whether you are a die-hard leaver, or equally a die-hard remainder, or anything in between, surely a people’s vote, second referendum, or confirmatory vote, whatever you want to call it is the most democratic way for everyone to affirm or reaffirm their position or even change their minds under these chaotic circumstances.
We are all so much more knowledgeable now about the issues involved in either leaving the EU altogether, or having a partial union with the EU, or any other “solution” that comes up, that we are all in a better position to make a judgement on our own individual position with regards to the EU, a much better position it seems to me than the political parties who are supposed to represent us, and who are totally fragmented over what we do about our membership of the EU.
It’s not about keeping having referendums until we get what we want whatever our individual position, as that will never work anyway. It’s about a final say for the people of this country based on current facts and with the much better information we have today, and did not have in 2016, over what we want to do – stay or go.
We are very lucky to live in a democratic country where we can freely vote for what we believe in, and we should use it. So I say ask the people again, as this is true democracy.
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No-one is afraid of a second vote, especially now that polls are showing a massive increase in the numbers of people who want to Leave and that almost everyone wants to get it over and done with. The EU have now proven that they want their own way and are reluctant to ensure that Brexit goes through smoothly - a dictatorship! Those who are demanding a second referendum in teh hopes that Brexit will be overturned - are in for a massive disappointment. To organise a second referendum would take another year or so. The result would be the same - but then we would have to wait another to years and more, while an agreement was reached yet again. Taking the UK into 2024?? EIGHT YEARS after the first referendum!! We would be in a worse position - the UK markets will continue to stagnate until Brexit has been finalised, businesses would be reluctant to move forward until they know how the markets are reacting, the economy would drop, money would still have to be paid to the EU, the UK would still be under EU's domination and would be forced to pay even more money into it due to the poor market performance within the union, etc.,etc, - so what would be the point in drawing this out?

When a general election is held, people vote according to how they view a certain set of circumstances relating to the person they are electing. A couple of years down the line and as it always happens - the situation is not as they wanted it to be. But a second general election would not be even contemplated, let allowed to go ahead.

The people have been given the right to a referendum, they took this democratic opportunity and voted accordingly. This vote was not the same as the vote for joining the EU - for then the people were really and intentionally lied to by Heath (see Government Confidential Document FCO30/104).
To set another referendum on the same topic, would set a completely different precedence that could reduce the level of our democratic rights in future. That is where the fear lies.

**said** · 10/05/2019 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by local

No need were having one on the 23rd May.

You will be able to vote for a remain party and show the countries huge swing towards remain.

If that doesn't work you can vote for Change UK or the Liberal Democrats to re-enter the EU.

That's Democracy or are you afraid of Democracy ?

Good point! There you go - those who want remain will have an opportunity to vote for their own party in the EU elections just as all those who want to leave can also vote. The EU elections are taking place among all member nations - so good luck with that!

**local** · 10/05/2019 03:26 PM

I am sure the Robert Mugabe book on democracy has been consulted heavily by the second vote shower.

.

**libraryguy** · 10/05/2019 03:37 PM

Can we just be realistic here? I am a die-hard Leaver, but I'd have a lot more respect for those who want to Remain if they just came out with it and said: "We don't like the result, we lost and I'd like to run it again so we can win".

Instead, we keep having these pointless arguments about how it's democratic to have another vote now we have more information. How many examples are you going to use that for? We didn't know Jeremy Corbyn was anti-semitic before he became leader, in that case, there should be another leadership election. MPs who've fiddled expenses that we didn't know about before an election. OK, get them out and have loads of by-elections.

Then we have the massaging of figures. "Only 37% of the total electorate voted to Leave" Well only 34% voted to Remain. 72% of the total electorate turned out!

Take another example... The Welsh Devolution Referendum in 2011...

Total Electorate - 2,289,044
Total Votes cast - 815,628 or just 35.63% of the electorate. 64.37% couldn't even be bothered to vote. But I don't hear you saying you want another referendum because only a minority of the electorate turned out.

So... out of the whole of the Welsh electorate, just 22% voted for devolution, but that's accepted as democracy. Are you happy with that? Want to re-run it?

We voted to Leave, the end result has NOT been enacted yet so democracy has not been finalised.

Leave WON - get over it.

And if we have a "confirmatory" vote, the options to vote on should be Leave with Mrs May's Deal or Leave on WTO Rules. We voted to Leave, we just need to vote how we leave now!

**Toodles McGinty** · 10/05/2019 04:26 PM

I read this today. Not my words but I agree with it:

i stare in utter incomprehension at any politician who comes out with the 'will of the people' stuff. These people are supposed to be intelligent enough to play a significant role in society, actually representing tens of thousands of people. And yet they come out with ignorant beliefs -
- that a referendum taken by people who were completely uninformed basically as an opinion poll should be sacrosanct
- despite the incredibly narrow result - which it kind of would be, wouldn't it, when people were basically guessing
- and despite the absolute DEMOCRATIC right of people to change their minds when given new information!
- despite the fact that MPs are supposed to bring about what is RIGHT for the nation, not what the latest whim is of 'the people' - if Brexit is wrong, they should damn well say so, not go along with the crap that it is sacrosanct and must be 'respected'. So, we have leading Labour MPs saying they voted remain and know Brexit is bad for the country but STILL they insist the referendum must be 'respected'. This is simply not intelligent.
- most governments since the second world war have got into power on a minority of the votes - so how come governments are allowed to be formed on a minority of the votes but the country has to be forced to change its constitution because of a tiny majority win - NOT consistent!
- then there's the 'a second referendum will be divisive' theme. Well, Labour MPs, get out there and say what is RIGHT about being it the EU and SELL the fact it is necessary to remain - ! Don't just abnegate all responsibility and insist that the stubborns are right in saying it MUST be done as some kind of act of god. I can't think of anything more ridiculous as an intellectual position. Really I cannot.
- and finally, the horrors of the abuse of MPs since the referendum. IF Labour MPs weren't going about saying 'the referendum MUST be respected' - then all the stubborn blowhards across the country would not be having their view endorsed. They would not be so easily able to rabble-rouse on Question Time, getting red in the face and shouting, that "WE VOTED TO LEAVE!!" Labour MPs are contributing to this stubborn, unthinking, unsubtle mindset. Shame on them. Shame on them!! Caroline Flint - you're one of them. Emily Thornberry, a year ago, you were another. If you're going to use illogical arguments about this flawed referendum, you're definitely going to be inciting ignorant people who are prepared to do quite ugly things in public, including to MPs. MPs have a responsibility to be intellectually up to the mark, to present the RIGHT arguments, not hold to an opinion which is only making things worse.
Because of course there should be a confirmatory vote. And of course the referendum was flawed. And of course the leave side broke the rules. And of course democracy is not a one-off event.

**local** · 10/05/2019 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty

I read this today. Not my words but I agree with it:

i stare in utter incomprehension at any politician who comes out with the 'will of the people' stuff. These people are supposed to be intelligent enough to play a significant role in society, actually representing tens of thousands of people. And yet they come out with ignorant beliefs -
- that a referendum taken by people who were completely uninformed basically as an opinion poll should be sacrosanct
- despite the incredibly narrow result - which it kind of would be, wouldn't it, when people were basically guessing
- and despite the absolute DEMOCRATIC right of people to change their minds when given new information!
- despite the fact that MPs are supposed to bring about what is RIGHT for the nation, not what the latest whim is of 'the people' - if Brexit is wrong, they should damn well say so, not go along with the crap that it is sacrosanct and must be 'respected'. So, we have leading Labour MPs saying they voted remain and know Brexit is bad for the country but STILL they insist the referendum must be 'respected'. This is simply not intelligent.
- most governments since the second world war have got into power on a minority of the votes - so how come governments are allowed to be formed on a minority of the votes but the country has to be forced to change its constitution because of a tiny majority win - NOT consistent!
- then there's the 'a second referendum will be divisive' theme. Well, Labour MPs, get out there and say what is RIGHT about being it the EU and SELL the fact it is necessary to remain - ! Don't just abnegate all responsibility and insist that the stubborns are right in saying it MUST be done as some kind of act of god. I can't think of anything more ridiculous as an intellectual position. Really I cannot.
- and finally, the horrors of the abuse of MPs since the referendum. IF Labour MPs weren't going about saying 'the referendum MUST be respected' - then all the stubborn blowhards across the country would not be having their view endorsed. They would not be so easily able to rabble-rouse on Question Time, getting red in the face and shouting, that "WE VOTED TO LEAVE!!" Labour MPs are contributing to this stubborn, unthinking, unsubtle mindset. Shame on them. Shame on them!! Caroline Flint - you're one of them. Emily Thornberry, a year ago, you were another. If you're going to use illogical arguments about this flawed referendum, you're definitely going to be inciting ignorant people who are prepared to do quite ugly things in public, including to MPs. MPs have a responsibility to be intellectually up to the mark, to present the RIGHT arguments, not hold to an opinion which is only making things worse.
Because of course there should be a confirmatory vote. And of course the referendum was flawed. And of course the leave side broke the rules. And of course democracy is not a one-off event.

Desperate pompous drivel written by a remoaner asserting that all remain voters knew what they were doing and leave voters didn't.

Forgetting the fact that the so called uninformed had,

The Prime Minister and most of his cabinet,
The Liberal Democrats,
The Greens,
Most of The Labour Party.
The Governor of the Bank of England,
Michael Heseltine, Ken Clarke,Martyn Lewis, Bear Grylls, David Beckham,Jamie Oliver etc etc etc

Most of the media but led squarely by the most biased broadcaster the BBC,

all telling them about the consequences of voting to leave.

**Ceam** · 10/05/2019 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by libraryguy

Can we just be realistic here? I am a die-hard Leaver, but I'd have a lot more respect for those who want to Remain if they just came out with it and said: "We don't like the result, we lost and I'd like to run it again so we can win".

Instead, we keep having these pointless arguments about how it's democratic to have another vote now we have more information. How many examples are you going to use that for? We didn't know Jeremy Corbyn was anti-semitic before he became leader, in that case, there should be another leadership election. MPs who've fiddled expenses that we didn't know about before an election. OK, get them out and have loads of by-elections.

Then we have the massaging of figures. "Only 37% of the total electorate voted to Leave" Well only 34% voted to Remain. 72% of the total electorate turned out!

Take another example... The Welsh Devolution Referendum in 2011...

Total Electorate - 2,289,044
Total Votes cast - 815,628 or just 35.63% of the electorate. 64.37% couldn't even be bothered to vote. But I don't hear you saying you want another referendum because only a minority of the electorate turned out.

So... out of the whole of the Welsh electorate, just 22% voted for devolution, but that's accepted as democracy. Are you happy with that? Want to re-run it?

We voted to Leave, the end result has NOT been enacted yet so democracy has not been finalised.

Leave WON - get over it.

And if we have a "confirmatory" vote, the options to vote on should be Leave with Mrs May's Deal or Leave on WTO Rules. We voted to Leave, we just need to vote how we leave now!

Yes, but leave doesn't have a plan.. Saying have a vote for with or without a deal. Gets a percentage of a percentage.

Many wouldn't have voted to leave with one or the other options available. Soft or hard Brexit.
If the original vote was.

Stay
Leave with May's deal (if we knew what it was then, or even now for that matter)
Leave with no deal.

We wouldn't be having this conversation as there would have been a massive majority to remain as the others are poles apart and could never win a majority vote.

**libraryguy** · 10/05/2019 06:08 PM

Dear Ceam...

You purposely suggest a vote that would guarantee a Remain vote.

Options to vote on...

Remain
Leave with a Deal
Leave with No Deal

Therefore a win for Remain is there for all to see before we even vote as you weigh it to split the Leave vote!

Or you count ALL the Leave votes en-mass, then after you count the Deal and No Deal ones

Perhaps a less weighted but more complicated vote would be...

1. Do you want to Remain or Leave?

Remain
Leave

2. If you voted Leave, do you want..

Leave with a Deal
Leave without a Deal

Lamparilla · 10/05/2019 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by K-T

Parliament also voted down No Deal, so I presume you are saying that the democratic option would be to revoke Article 50 and remain?

I have seen no evidence of the EU "plugging away" for another vote - it all seems to be coming from the UK electorate who can see what a disaster we are heading towards if we leave - either with May's awful deal or with no deal.

I'm not sure of the logic there. They voted down No Deal, but it wasn't a choice between that or something else. Voting down No Deal could mean "I still want to leave, but I'd prefer a different deal, and I most certainly don't want WTO terms".

My 'plugging away' comment was in reference to Ireland, but if you look at what Tusk said yesterday I think it was, he most certainly is still plugging away on the idea of Bexit being cancelled.

**said** · 10/05/2019 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by libraryguy

Can we just be realistic here? I am a die-hard Leaver, but I'd have a lot more respect for those who want to Remain if they just came out with it and said: "We don't like the result, we lost and I'd like to run it again so we can win".

Instead, we keep having these pointless arguments about how it's democratic to have another vote now we have more information. How many examples are you going to use that for? We didn't know Jeremy Corbyn was anti-semitic before he became leader, in that case, there should be another leadership election. MPs who've fiddled expenses that we didn't know about before an election. OK, get them out and have loads of by-elections.

Then we have the massaging of figures. "Only 37% of the total electorate voted to Leave" Well only 34% voted to Remain. 72% of the total electorate turned out!

Take another example... The Welsh Devolution Referendum in 2011...

Total Electorate - 2,289,044
Total Votes cast - 815,628 or just 35.63% of the electorate. 64.37% couldn't even be bothered to vote. But I don't hear you saying you want another referendum because only a minority of the electorate turned out.

So... out of the whole of the Welsh electorate, just 22% voted for devolution, but that's accepted as democracy. Are you happy with that? Want to re-run it?

We voted to Leave, the end result has NOT been enacted yet so democracy has not been finalised.

Leave WON - get over it.

And if we have a "confirmatory" vote, the options to vote on should be Leave with Mrs May's Deal or Leave on WTO Rules. We voted to Leave, we just need to vote how we leave now!

We vote in the EU elections that's how! There should be very high Brexit turnout to vote for the Brexit Party , then it will be a fast Brexit - no deal.

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