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Originally Posted by Hamble
Quote from 2016 article when Cameron was still PM at a time when the public were calling for Blair to be put on trial and Radical Islamic Terrorists were attacking civilians in the UK?
Quote
"Mr Cameron replied: “I think people should read the report and come to their own conclusion. Clearly the aftermath of this conflict was profoundly disastrous in so many ways. I don’t move away from that
all.”
You would rather side with Europe and all its history against minorities?
Cue the jewish link.
If I said I'd watched Monty Don on gardeners world you'd find the jewish link.
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Originally Posted by Hamble
Quote from 2016 article when Cameron was still PM at a time when the public were calling for Blair to be put on trial and Radical Islamic Terrorists were attacking civilians in the UK?
Quote
"Mr Cameron replied: “I think people should read the report and come to their own conclusion. Clearly the aftermath of this conflict was profoundly disastrous in so many ways. I don’t move away from that
all.”
You would rather side with Europe and all its history against minorities?
Cameron was more than happy to go along with Blair, I also clearly remember Cameron chomping at the bit to get fully involved in the Syrian conflict siding with ISIS of all people, it was the Labour party along with enough sensible Tories to put the blocks on that idiocy.
You wish to discuss the historical treatment of minorities? tell me one major power at any time who treated minorities fairly, in fact it is only in very recent times that minorities have really been considered.
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Originally Posted by Mr B S Sniffer
Cue the jewish link.
If I said I'd watched Monty Don on gardeners world you'd find the jewish link.
?
Roma are not Jewish.
Neither are the present persecuted Muslim minority migrants in Germany.
Or the victims of the Belgian atrocity in the Congo which Belguim
has not yet atoned for.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...al-past-congo/
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Originally Posted by Hamble
Quote from 2016 article when Cameron was still PM at a time when the public were calling for Blair to be put on trial and Radical Islamic Terrorists were attacking civilians in the UK?
Quote
"Mr Cameron replied: “I think people should read the report and come to their own conclusion. Clearly the aftermath of this conflict was profoundly disastrous in so many ways. I don’t move away from that
all.”
You would rather side with Europe and all its history against minorities?
If you're condemning Blair you must agree with this bloke then!
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/16BtpSCufU0" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Originally Posted by Alikado
it has nothing to do with brexit..these firms are just gambling on shifting sands....they are all low lifes...just look at the neil woodford debarcle....they will make money whatever happens...but your pensions will suffer whatever happens...do not invest in these funds...its in black and white...your investement can go up or down.....take your money out and spend it before you die..and enjoy the lot..
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Originally Posted by Mr B S Sniffer
If you're condemning Blair you must agree with this bloke then!
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/16BtpSCufU0" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I prefer to agree with the other 590 city demonstrations around the World than for what I know of that man and his politics.
Corbyn was right in his prophecy of it setting off a spiral of conflict,of hate,of misery,of desperation.
Pity we were not warned that it would be on British soil.
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Aah the old Iraq war chestnut rears its head,
laid carefully at Bush and Blairs feet by some misty thinking conveniently forgetting who else was involved and of course re assigning saint Saddam's place in history.
Suppurating through this distorted thinking the quaint notion that Islamic terrorism exists because of it.
If only we had dotted the i's and crossed the t's we wouldn't have a problem.
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Originally Posted by local
Aah the old Iraq war chestnut rears its head,
laid carefully at Bush and Blairs feet by some misty thinking conveniently forgetting who else was involved and of course re assigning saint Saddam's place in history.
Suppurating through this distorted thinking the quaint notion that Islamic terrorism exists because of it.
If only we had dotted the i's and crossed the t's we wouldn't have a problem.
The rise in Terrorism in the UK since 9/11 and the Invasion of Iraq during New Labours Government.
The figures are unequivocal.
file:///C:/Users/steph/Downloads/CBP-7613.pdf
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Originally Posted by Hamble
The rise in Terrorism in the UK since 9/11 and the Invasion of Iraq during New Labours Government.
The figures are unequivocal.
file:///C:/Users/steph/Downloads/CBP-7613.pdf
I do hope your not trying to lay this at Labours door.
There was a huge majority in parliament ,
The Labour government's own motion, allowing for military action, was carried by 412 votes to 149 83 Labour MPs voted against their government.
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Originally Posted by local
I do hope your not trying to lay this at Labours door.
There was a huge majority in parliament ,
The Labour government's own motion, allowing for military action, was carried by 412 votes to 149 83 Labour MPs voted against their government.
Based on the word of Blair who was PM?
Quote
"Even so, the Chilcot report states: “Mr Blair’s note, which had not been discussed or agreed with his colleagues, set the UK on a path leading to diplomatic activity in the UN and the possibility of participation in military action in a way that would make it very difficult for the UK to subsequently withdraw its support for the US.”
In September 2002, Mr Blair told Mr Bush that, if it came to war, Britain would have a significant military role. In January 2003 Mr Blair agreed to deploy three combat brigades for possible operations in southern Iraq. This happened before parliament and government legal advisers had given the green light for military action."
https://www.ft.com/content/da41beee-...6-0712b3873ae1
Henry Mance and James Blitz JULY 6, 2016 Print this page15
The Chilcot report will disappoint those who were seeking a clear and decisive condemnation of Tony Blair, the former prime minister. It presents Britain’s role in the Iraq debacle as a set of collective failures rather than as the fault of one individual.
Nonetheless, the inquiry concludes that Mr Blair’s decision to go to war in 2003 was flawed. “The UK chose to join the invasion of Iraq before the peaceful options for disarmament had been exhausted,” it states. “Military action at that time was not a last resort.”
The judgments about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction were presented “with a certainty that was not justified” and the consequences of the invasion were underestimated.
Did Mr Blair privately tell George W Bush he was committed to war with Iraq before he had established the legal and parliamentary support he needed?
The US decided in late 2001 to pursue regime change in Iraq. On July 28 2002 — eight months before the invasion — Mr Blair sent a note to the US president, stating: “I will be with you, whatever,” adding that getting rid of Saddam Hussein was “the right thing to do”. However, in that note, the prime minister set out three conditions where change was needed: progress on the Middle East peace process, UN authority for military action and a shift in public opinion in the west and the Arab world.
Those conditions may give Mr Blair some cover against the charge that he was pre-emptively committed to regime change. Even so, the Chilcot report states: “Mr Blair’s note, which had not been discussed or agreed with his colleagues, set the UK on a path leading to diplomatic activity in the UN and the possibility of participation in military action in a way that would make it very difficult for the UK to subsequently withdraw its support for the US.”
In September 2002, Mr Blair told Mr Bush that, if it came to war, Britain would have a significant military role. In January 2003 Mr Blair agreed to deploy three combat brigades for possible operations in southern Iraq. This happened before parliament and government legal advisers had given the green light for military action.
What judgment does Chilcot make of the UK government’s use of intelligence on Iraq’s WMD?
Chilcot states: “It is now clear that policy on Iraq was made on the basis of flawed intelligence and assessments. They were not challenged and they should have been.” On the September 2002 dossier published by the Blair government spelling out the alleged state of Iraq’s WMD stocks, Chilcot says: “Judgments were presented with a certainty that was not justified.”
The thrust of Chilcot’s criticism seems directed at the Joint Intelligence Committee headed by Sir John Scarlett; the JIC was responsible for collating all the intelligence and presenting it to ministers. For Chilcot, “the JIC should have made clear to Mr Blair that the assessed intelligence had not established ‘beyond doubt’ either that Iraq had continued to produce chemical and biological weapons or that efforts to develop nuclear weapons continued. The JIC should have made that clear to Mr Blair.”
However, there is also criticism about the way MI6, headed by Sir Richard Dearlove at the time, handled its remit. The Secret Intelligence Service, it says, had a responsibility to ensure that ministers “were informed in a timely way when doubts arose about key sources and when, subsequently, intelligence was withdrawn”.
Mr Blair is criticised for failing to tell the Commons the full intelligence assessment on the consequences of military action. In March 2003, he said that Saddam constituted a “real and present” danger to UK and national security. But Mr Blair had also been told that an invasion “would increase the threat from al-Qaeda to the UK and to UK interests”.
Was the war legal?
As expected, Chilcot does not express a view on whether the military action had the necessary legality. This, he says, can be done only by a properly constituted international criminal court.
However, Chilcot concludes that “the circumstances in which it was decided there was a legal basis for UK military action were far from satisfactory”. There is particular criticism of Peter Goldsmith, the attorney-general, who changed his mind on the eve of war over whether the UK needed a second UN Security Council resolution explicitly permitting the invasion.
Lord Goldsmith “should have been asked to provide written advice explaining how, in the absence of a majority in the Security Council, Mr Blair could take that decision [to go to war]”.
Were the post-invasion problems encountered by the UK and US predictable?
Mr Blair told the inquiry the difficulties encountered in Iraq could not have been known in advance. Chilcot says: “We do not agree that hindsight is required. The risks of internal strife in Iraq, active Iranian pursuits of its interests, regional instability, and al-Qaeda activity in Iraq were each explicitly identified before the invasion.”
Moreover, UK ministers “were aware of the inadequacy of US plans” — but Mr Blair managed only to persuade Mr Bush to accept UN authorisation of the post-conflict role.
What went wrong with the occupation planning?
Mr Blair “did not ensure that there was a flexible, realistic and fully resourced plan that integrated UK military and civilian contributions.” In fact, the “scale of the UK effort in post-conflict Iraq never matched the scale of the challenge. Whitehall departments and their ministers failed to put collective weight behind the task”.
A particular problem arose when the UK began simultaneous operations in Afghanistan in 2006. The UK “did not have sufficient resources to do so”, Chilcot says. The increased emphasis on Afghanistan “had a material impact on the availability of essential equipment in Iraq, particularly helicopters and equipment for surveillance and intelligence collection”.
By 2007, British forces in Basra, southern Iraq, were unable to challenge “militia dominance” and so had to settle for handing over detainees in exchange for an end to targeting of their forces. The British military role ended “a very long way from success”.
Last edited by Hamble; 14/08/2019 at 10:36 AM.
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Well it's fairly obvious that whether or not we regard Blair as a war criminal, he isn't going to be charged with anything.
It's history now. We can learn from it, or be condemned to repeat it, as the saying goes.
It is pretty clear that our close ties with the USA took us there. And it seems that our potentially even closer ties will take us there again.
With the war-monger John Bolton in Europe making noises about deals, and ripping up multi-lateral treaties as he goes, we'll be dragged into some kind of conflict sooner than later.
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Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty
Well it's fairly obvious that whether or not we regard Blair as a war criminal, he isn't going to be charged with anything.
It's history now. We can learn from it, or be condemned to repeat it, as the saying goes.
It is pretty clear that our close ties with the USA took us there. And it seems that our potentially even closer ties will take us there again.
With the war-monger John Bolton in Europe making noises about deals, and ripping up multi-lateral treaties as he goes, we'll be dragged into some kind of conflict sooner than later.
There is always a chance of a prosecution after all squaddies are being hounded 50 years later.
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