The Johnson Youth Movement

[Toodles McGinty]

I see that despite being widely condemned by all sides of the political spectrum (well, apart from the hard right), the clergy, virtually every decent human being and even his own sister, Johnson is not only refusing to scale back the rhetoric of violence, he's doubling down on it.

He's just been interviewed on the BBC, and insisted on still calling the Benn Act 'the Surrender Bill'.

He told his cabinet that the phrase “surrender bill” was hitting home with voters and would form a key part of any campaign.

He also insisted we would be leaving on October 31st, 'with or without a deal'.

So once again he's completely disregarding the law, and using Alt-Right tactics to appeal to his base, presumably to incite civil disobedience, or worse, if Parliament stands in the way of his disaster capitalist overlords making a killing.

How is this NOT like 1930s Germany? Before Godwin's Law is raised, it doesn't count if there is an actual comparison. How is using inflammatory language to portray dissenters as 'enemies of the people' not directly from the Nazi playbook? How is using unlawful methods, dismissing fears of physical violence (even encouraging them), and generally riding rough-shod over every accepted decency, not exactly comparable to the events preceding WW2?

Now there has been an insidious attempt to influence youngsters. A test, I believe, to see just how much they can get away with. Digital message boards in schools have had to remove a series of slides featuring Johnson, after parents complained.

A set of 15 second messages, with a brief biography of Johnson, featuring statements such as 'he wants to unite the UK', 'He's made promises about public services', 'He promised Brexit would be done'. And 'People have many different views about Boris Johnson because of his political views, plans for Brexit, personality, dress sense and past behaviour'.

I mean, come on, this is propaganda. Subliminal messaging. The 'Johnson Youth Movement'?

What next, a red 'R' painted on the homes and businesses of remain voters?

[AdmiralAckbar]

What next, a red 'R' painted on the homes and businesses of remain voters?

There's a few posters on here who are probably stocking up on red paint as we speak - some to do the painting and some just to sell it on and make a profit.

As for me, I'm buying up all the paintbrushes and burning them before they can be used.

[gazaprop]

Toodles - I'm disappointed with your post on this. Ordinarily I enjoy your contributions, indeed we've had a couple of jousts with the metaphoric pen but - this latest diatribe I must take issue with. It comes across at best as ill thought out and at worst as paranoid Johnsonphobia.

How is this NOT like 1930s Germany? Really - are you expecting an answer? This situation is nothing like 1930's Germany in that no particular group or groups of people are being systematically abused, incarcerated or murdered.
A sense of perspective is needed here as your comments against Johnson, likening him to Hitler, could be viewed as being equally as inflammatory.

In my opinion there is too much hype being whipped up over the use of 'surrender' in this debate. Why is it suddenly viewed with as much distaste as the N word? Why was no equal measure of fuss made when Unionists from across the water used to say surrender? There have been far worse things done and said without the level of hysteria we now see being whipped up by the 'liberal elite'.

presumably to incite civil disobedience, or worse - that ball was started rolling many months ago by a campaign of gerrymandering, operating under the cloak of 'protecting democracy'. There are many who will view the obstruction of a democratically arrived at decision as cause to take to the streets - I won't support such action but, I feel the likes of Swinson, Corbyn, Sturgeon, Lucas, Stewart et al have badly misjudged the public's mood on this.

Now there has been an insidious attempt to influence youngsters - Why is it insidious? Are the 'recruitment' campaigns run by other political parties also to be described in such pejorative terms? They are all attempts at swelling the ranks with young, impressionable minds to future proof the doctrine.

As for taking him to task for the way he speaks and how he says it - the opposition benches are the place to look for wild eyed, hysterical screeching. Johnson looked positively measured when viewed against some of the spitting and snarling members getting all in a lather.
There are those who think that there has been too much, Hello old chap and oh I say that's a bit rum about proceedings in Parliament and that it could do with a bit more heated human debate.

I wrote earlier in the week that there is a rather pathetic movement towards 'I hate what you say because of who you are' on this Forum and your post appears as just that.

The real person who should have the invective directed at him is Cameron. He right royally bodged the setting up, criteria and conduct of the referendum. Then he blithely walked away and left us to it whilst smugly writing about how awful all the prolls around him really were.

[AdmiralAckbar]

First they came for the (so called) surrender-ers ...

[salus.populi]

Now there has been an insidious attempt to influence youngsters. A test, I believe, to see just how much they can get away with. Digital message boards in schools have had to remove a series of slides featuring Johnson, after parents complained.

A set of 15 second messages, with a brief biography of Johnson, featuring statements such as 'he wants to unite the UK', 'He's made promises about public services', 'He promised Brexit would be done'. And 'People have many different views about Boris Johnson because of his political views, plans for Brexit, personality, dress sense and past behaviour'.

I mean, come on, this is propaganda. Subliminal messaging. The 'Johnson Youth Movement'?

I saw that. Worth noting they couldn't even display the union flag the right way up in their propaganda. Then again it is a sign of distress...

[local]

It will be interesting to see how this anti Boris rhetoric develops as we approach the key points over the month of October.

Lame attempts to invoke those old Hitler comparisons, inciting violence etc are nothing new and are not the accusations that would be thrown from the moral high-ground.

When the leave camp in Parliament were enjoying their pyrrhic victories their happy little faces were a picture.
Victories in the Courts certainly a shock to most legal experts had them jumping for joy so they triumphantly walked back in to Parliament.

To do what ?

They had in front of them a jet-lagged tired Boris and a minority government sent back by the courts.

They have their Benn bill and yet they spent the time progressing the houses business not one jot and berating Johnson.

His "crimes" were to utter the words surrender, humbug etc yet they erupted in faux outrage, red faced crazed rabble rousers looking to score points with their friends.

The question has to be, you have a majority, you have won every vote,
the court case, so why are they so mad with him ?

people insulting MP's is not knew and you can't be honestly shocked at people whose vote you have taken being angry thankfully it seems to have extended to little more than internet trolls, shouting and banging on buildings windows.

Is it the dawning reality that their long drawn out frustration of democracy is reaching the end ?

[seivad]

How is this NOT like 1930s Germany? Really - are you expecting an answer? This situation is nothing like 1930's Germany in that no particular group or groups of people are being systematically abused, incarcerated or murdered.

Until the Nazis took power in 1933, none of the above took place. Taking advantage of the dire straits the German economy was in after the Great Depression, Hitler started his campaign of blame. By the time he came to power the people believed and supported his policies. And that's when the attacks started. Prior to that it was just words, divisive hateful words.

As is the case with the lead up to the Brexit referendum, when there's a whole raft of disaffected people, you've got a pretty fertile breeding ground for a new solution. As Brexit has not yet been delivered, there's additional fuel being stoked on the fire. I completely understand and sympathise with those who have suffered economic hardship for years, and feel as if they've been ignored by parties of all stripes. When you believe that you have nothing to lose, and someone offers a solution they claim will improve the country and your economic situation, why wouldn't you go for it... and that's exactly what happened in Germany.

I think they've been sold a pig in the poke by the very people who have caused their suffering, and I take no pleasure in that.

The real person who should have the invective directed at him is Cameron. He right royally bodged the setting up, criteria and conduct of the referendum. Then he blithely walked away and left us to it whilst smugly writing about how awful all the prolls around him really were.

Well I won't argue with you on that!

[local]

A lot of supposition in there.

The rather odd conclusion must be this leave movement is a construct of the very rich for the gullible poor.

Yet many leave voters were the comfortably off, middle aged and retired.

The poor are now the young with their job insecurity and housing costs crippling them.

Whipping up conspiracies is always a risk isn't it ?
Should I copy some more from the pro Brexit Socialist worker for you !

[Lamparilla]

I agree with a lot of Toodles' original post. I might not have used the same hyperbole, but the sentiment is the same.

Here are a couple of quotes from Benito Mussolini:

Democracy is talking itself to death. The people do not know what they want; they do not know what is the best for them. There is too much foolishness, too much lost motion. I have stopped the talk and the nonsense. I am a man of action. Democracy is beautiful in theory; in practice it is a fallacy.
......................................

Yes, a dictator can be loved. Provided that the masses fear him at the same time. The crowd love strong men. The crowd is like a woman.
.........................................

I wonder what Johnson read as a student, because, based on recent events, those seem to be his beliefs too.

[Lamparilla]

Yet many leave voters were the comfortably off, middle aged and retired.

The section of society where most of the xenophobia and racism come from.

Not everything is about money.

[Toodles McGinty]

Toodles - I'm disappointed with your post on this. Ordinarily I enjoy your contributions, indeed we've had a couple of jousts with the metaphoric pen but - this latest diatribe I must take issue with. It comes across at best as ill thought out and at worst as paranoid Johnsonphobia.

How is this NOT like 1930s Germany? Really - are you expecting an answer? This situation is nothing like 1930's Germany in that no particular group or groups of people are being systematically abused, incarcerated or murdered.
A sense of perspective is needed here as your comments against Johnson, likening him to Hitler, could be viewed as being equally as inflammatory...

Nothing wrong with a joust here and there, gazaprop. Keeps the old grey matter ticking over.

I thought for some time about posting this. Mainly because any mention of the Nazis is usually (and correctly) interpreted as over-reacting at best, hysteria at worse.

This isn't particular to Nazi Germany, it's happened throughout history and it is certainly happening across Europe and the rest of the world right now. Before the referendum was mentioned, I certainly saw the seeds of it in France, Greece, Italy and Hungary, which was one of the reasons I thought we might be better off out of the EU. More recently we have the USA, Brazil and the Philippines, and elsewhere. Then there are the Trump rallies and his win, the vile rhetoric he uses to embolden his base, the chants, the racism, the defence of white supremacists.

I didn't think it could happen here. But there were the attacks on immigrants after the referendum. Hate crimes have risen starkly since 2016 and anti-migrant and anti-foreigner rhetoric has become “normalised” even among high-ranking civil servants. (The Times)

It's been a well planned, perfectly executed coup, in my opinion. Not a Tory coup, may I point out. Not at all. Lifelong Tories have been disgusted by this. There are so many connections between the Alt-Right, Bannon, Cummings, Farage, Cambridge Analytica and elections across the world. Manipulation of the media, which has been mainly in the hands of the hard right in this country since the 80s. News Corp and the Mail fuelling this strange anti-intellectualism, where the public rail against experts. Who suggested that quite recently? Gove? Trump? What do experts know, right?

The public interest in the EU has been fairly low for decades. It spiked with Blair's immigration policy, then soon returned to disinterest. In general, as recently as 2014, the public favoured being in the EU with reforms.

Then the perfect storm of mass refugee movement in Europe and Cameron offering a referendum. Up to that point, despite protestations on here, the public might have had the odd complaint about bendy bananas or the EU cancelling Christmas. Utter bull peddled mainly by Johnson in his Times column. But no great anti-EU sentiment. And then this, by the merest chance...comes when the EU decides that billionaires and mega corporations can no longer store their cash in offshore and dodgy accounts.

So to the comparison with Germany in the 30s. Or fascism at any time:

• A nation in crisis: The State is in decline, and it's only getting worse. There are two primary causes for this decline — the variety of racial or ethnic groups in the State, which makes the State "impure" and weakens it; and a conspiracy by certain racial, ethnic or national groups to keep the State down.
• An idealized past: The State is currently damaged but was once supreme. Fascism aspires toward the renewal of the State and its primary ethnic group to some mythical past era of glory.
• A need for social change: The people must submit to major changes, a new social structure and way of life in order to achieve a revival.
• Fascism arises from poor socio-economic conditions — like those of post-World War I Europe or post-World War II Japan. The countries that were defeated in World War I — including Mussolini's Italy — suffered greatly from the restrictions placed on them after the war. In Germany, a fascist form of government promised a return to a better life and a better position in the world.

?
Sound familiar? A 'Global Britain'? 'Taking Back Control'?

I didn't liken Johnson to Hitler. I didn't mention Hitler. Hitler knew what he was doing. Johnson is a useful idiot. As a child his family spoke Greek and Latin and he still didn't get a first class degree in Classics. He's developed a persona as an affable rogue. He's a proven liar that has failed miserably in matters of state. You know his history, you cannot possibly admire the man.

He's failed as a Prime Minister. He isn't up to the job in any way. He's fine when holding court for chosen journalists, or at prearranged speeches. But he's not fit for the highest office. He thought he could go into Number 10 and bend Parliament to his will with a few classical references and the Boris persona. A bit of bluster and a desperate attempt at a Churchillian tone. Result? 7 defeats and a Supreme Court thrashing.

So he's taken to playing to his base. With every outrage, he's gaining favour with the British equivalent of the MAGA hat brigade. His actual words don't matter. When right-minded politicians are horrified at the use of the word 'humbug', it isn't that word. It's his refusal to acknowledge that politicians and their families are receiving death threats. The female MPs are being threatened with rape. Using the murder of an MP to 'get Brexit done'. His refusal to acknowledge that he has taken unlawful actions. His refusal to state he won't break the law. In Parliament, he isn't debating with the Opposition, he's playing to his base. To you. He couldn't care less about Parliament any more. He's playing to the cameras. To his adoring, red-hatted public.

And his base are fooled into thinking he's on their side. That he's 'getting the job done'. 'Inciting violence' are not my words, they're Amber Rudd's. His sister called his words 'highly reprehensible'. His brother won't serve in his Cabinet. But his base loves it. Like Trump's. Good. Old. Boris.

So yes, I believe violence is the next step. Because just over a third of the electorate believed the lies fed by a highly skilled and extremely experienced campaign. They are still being played. We've gone from leaving with a deal, to leave on Halloween regardless of the cost to the country. Why do you think that is. Why not leave in 3 months with a good deal? What will happen if we go on midnight on October 31st? Fireworks? Free gold for everyone? Unicorns and rainbows? A collective sigh of relief? Or Yellowhammer?


1/3 of the electorate voted for Brexit, 1/4 of the population. This is no basis for such drastic, verging on existential long term change which is not going to be good for the vast majority of people in this country. Sovereignty/democracy and immigration are the two main reasons why Brexit supporters want to leave the EU, and Brexit will achieve neither of them. Apart from the certainty of the jackboot of neoliberalism stamping down even harder on everyone’s neck, the economy and pension system needs immigration so that won’t fall very much, if at all. And democracy will receive a severe assault when American companies start suing the UK government, in secret courts, because democratically mandated legislation threatens their profit margin. At least we now know when a shite like Richard Branson sues the NHS. A US trade deal, which the UK will be begging for, will deliver this and many more delights like lower food standards and NHS privatisation.


It is fascism, pure and simple. Manipulation of the masses in a time honoured way. We won't surrender. We will never 'surrender', right?

Sorry for the very, very, very long post. I've tried to explain it from my point of view. It isn't politics, it is manipulation. Of the 37% by the '1%'. My friends don't consist only of Labour supporters. Nor simply remain voters. It isn't 'I hate what you say because of who you are'.

The real person who should have the invective directed at him is Cameron.

To a point, yes. The EU offered him an exceptional deal in the union's terms. But the ERG didn't want it.

[local]

The section of society where most of the xenophobia and racism come from.

Not everything is about money.

This charge and the descent into into the febrile invective fuelled discourse we have now started within days of the announcement of the results of the election.

You vote for Brexit and the charge is you must be xenophobic and racist.

You must be thick.

You didn't know what you were voting for.
bill

Your Poor.

Your Rich .

Your gullible.

Did I say racist again that highly offensive term that just falls off the lips so easily.

Yet the same people condemn Johnson for saying a bill that hands unlimited control to another power is a surrender document.

I say again despite the provocation and outpourings, that the Brexit voters have behaved with extraordinary restraint whilst people openly plot to take their votes and insult them in the process.

There will be some verbal gymnastics to condemn me but to be frank its been said before and were used to it.

[Toodles McGinty]

Yet the same people condemn Johnson for saying a bill that hands unlimited control to another power is a surrender document.

Leaving with a deal is not surrendering. If it is, then Johnson stating he's trying to get a deal means he IS surrendering, yes? Or it means he's lying when he says he's trying to get a deal. it has to be one or the other.

I say again despite the provocation and outpourings, that the Brexit voters have behaved with extraordinary restraint whilst people openly plot to take their votes and insult them in the process.

Murdering a politician. Death threats. Rape threats. Intimidating MPs to the point of needing police escorts and protection. Elected representatives in fear for their lives.

Yes, your definition of 'restraint' is indeed extraordinary.

[local]

Leaving with a deal is not surrendering. If it is, then Johnson stating he's trying to get a deal means he IS surrendering, yes? Or it means he's lying when he says he's trying to get a deal. it has to be one or the other.



Murdering a politician. Death threats. Rape threats. Intimidating MPs to the point of needing police escorts and protection. Elected representatives in fear for their lives.

Yes, your definition of 'restraint' is indeed extraordinary.

Yes extraordinary restraint we are the victims of repeatedly attempted vote theft and abuse.


Some have no doubt acted badly but they are a statistical insignificance.

Out of 17.4 million victims of crime the retaliation or defence rate is
de minimis.

[Toodles McGinty]

Some have no doubt acted badly but they are a statistical insignificance.

Well, you wouldn't mind if you become an insignificance then? Your family and loved ones?

Out of 17.4 million victims of crime the retaliation or defence rate is
de minimis.

Yet 100% worse than their perceived opposition. Any leave MPs complaining about death threats? Rape threats?

So a murder is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Murder, death threats and rape threats meaningless because not all 17.4 millions did it?

De minimis non curat lex. The law does not concern itself with trifles. Give it a try. You'll find it does.

As your pal Fat Al found out this week.

So dismissing murder, and rape as insignificant. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Same thing every time I bother to engage in any kind of exchange with you.

You are a crank. A honking great foam-flecked reprehensible crank.