Cancel Brexit ?

[Ceam]

You make the dictators argument, the reality is the people make the bigger decisions the experts implement them.
You don't need to a solicitor to make the decision to buy a house.
The current deal was negotiated by Boris but done by experts whilst Boris was drawing pictures with kids.

To be fair playing with crayons is about the right level for him.

[Toodles McGinty]

My stance has always been that a referendum was a crazy way to decide our membership of the EU. The matter is far too complex for the average voter to get their head around. They simply lack the expertise, knowledge and, basically, the desire to do all the research needed to come to a well thought out decision on our relationship with the EU.
However, no politician - or hardly a one - is willing to state that publicly for fear of insulting the intelligence of the great British public.

Agreed. It was lies and fear mongering on one side, total apathy on the other. The complexities of the workings of the EU wasn't demonstrated by either side. Mainly because the politicians in charge didn't have the clearest view either.

When experts did speak, when economists with a lifetime's experience stated that Brexit simply cannot make us better off, the public were told 'they'd had enough of experts'. More lies.

While I'd love to see Brexit cancelled, I do think a confirmatory referendum is the only solution to the current impasse. Maybe more people think Brexit is a good idea, so a larger majority would clarify the situation. Or, as I suspect, more people have woken up to the fact, the absolute fact, that Brexit will make us far worse off, and would vote 'remain'.

If we don't, there is going to be a split in this country for decades to come. Particularly from younger generations whose freedoms have been curtailed. We've got years and years of negotiations ahead of us, by people who simply do not have the national interests at heart. If we can stop that now, we should.

[local]

Agreed. It was lies and fear mongering on one side, total apathy on the other. The complexities of the workings of the EU wasn't demonstrated by either side. Mainly because the politicians in charge didn't have the clearest view either.

When experts did speak, when economists with a lifetime's experience stated that Brexit simply cannot make us better off, the public were told 'they'd had enough of experts'. More lies.

While I'd love to see Brexit cancelled, I do think a confirmatory referendum is the only solution to the current impasse. Maybe more people think Brexit is a good idea, so a larger majority would clarify the situation. Or, as I suspect, more people have woken up to the fact, the absolute fact, that Brexit will make us far worse off, and would vote 'remain'.

If we don't, there is going to be a split in this country for decades to come. Particularly from younger generations whose freedoms have been curtailed. We've got years and years of negotiations ahead of us, by people who simply do not have the national interests at heart. If we can stop that now, we should.

The benefit of hindsight has shown us almost the exact same "experts" with a lifetime of experience were wheeled out during the discussions on joining the EURO they were demonstrably wrong.

A confirmatory referendum is perhaps the most incendiary course of action that could be taken.

How would you feel if you won the general election vote for Corbyn as Prime Minster and "Local" delayed it for three and a half years.

Then I told you to rip up your vote and have another go saying "Its just more luck"

You didn't understand what you were voting for ?

You only voted for him because your from up north and stupid ?

Corbyn had a red bus ?




You can't destroy peoples votes because those who didn't want something have delayed and are delaying the implementation of the referendum outcome.

Its a recipe for anarchy and the destruction of our democracy what lesson is that for our children, vote and it will be ignored unless you vote the way we want you to.

Oh and by the way children your too stupid to make your way in the world economy.

[Ceam]

The benefit of hindsight has shown us almost the exact same "experts" with a lifetime of experience were wheeled out during the discussions on joining the EURO they were demonstrably wrong.

A confirmatory referendum is perhaps the most incendiary course of action that could be taken.

How would you feel if you won the general election vote for Corbyn as Prime Minster and "Local" delayed it for three and a half years.

Then I told you to rip up your vote and have another go saying "Its just more luck"

You didn't understand what you were voting for ?

You only voted for him because your from up north and stupid ?

Corbyn had a red bus ?




You can't destroy peoples votes because those who didn't want something have delayed and are delaying the implementation of the referendum outcome.

Its a recipe for anarchy and the destruction of our democracy what lesson is that for our children, vote and it will be ignored unless you vote the way we want you to.

Oh and by the way children your too stupid to make your way in the world economy.

No but you can have a vote when the whole thing was built on lies, and while we still don't know the full implications of staying or leaving, We certainly do have a better understanding of the implications.


And I wouldn't call anyone stupid just ill informed.

[Toodles McGinty]

The benefit of hindsight has shown us almost the exact same "experts" with a lifetime of experience were wheeled out during the discussions on joining the EURO they were demonstrably wrong.

A confirmatory referendum is perhaps the most incendiary course of action that could be taken.

How would you feel if you won the general election vote for Corbyn as Prime Minster and "Local" delayed it for three and a half years.

Then I told you to rip up your vote and have another go saying "Its just more luck"

You didn't understand what you were voting for ?

You only voted for him because your from up north and stupid ?

Corbyn had a red bus ?




You can't destroy peoples votes because those who didn't want something have delayed and are delaying the implementation of the referendum outcome.

Its a recipe for anarchy and the destruction of our democracy what lesson is that for our children, vote and it will be ignored unless you vote the way we want you to.

Oh and by the way children your too stupid to make your way in the world economy.

A General Election and a referendum are entirely different animals. For a start, a general election is based on a whole raft of issues. Manifestos are published. It isn't a grey area where few experts actually exist. It is a case of 'if we are elected, then we will...' It's down to the electorate to make a decision based on that information. Then it can easily be changed 4 years later.

The referendum was nothing like that. For a start, it shouldn't have been simplified to a two way decision with no question of a deal or none at all, given the myriad of complications that alone presents. It was based on lies, more lies, disinformation and a complexity of issues beyond anyone but a legal specialist in the subject. The remain side didn't do enough to get this point across. The leave side just lied through their teeth, led by career liars Johnson and Farage. The result cannot easily be changed 4 years later, as proven by our struggle to join the EU in the first place. Plus on rejoining we won't have the advantages we do now. We'd be in the Schengen Zone, and would, no doubt, have to accept the Euro as our currency.

There is a precedent for cancelling the results of referenda when the public have not been fully informed. And regardless of Brexiteers objections, none of us were fully informed. Even now, in any vox pop on any news channel, there is a huge misunderstanding regarding our membership of the EU and the advantages that go with it. Or disadvantages, dependent on your viewpoint.

The legality of the government's (and particularly the Prime Minister's) actions is being questioned in the courts. What kind of lesson in democracy is being taught when the legitimacy of the actions of the Prime Minister is having to be decided by a higher authority? How have we got to a position where the government cannot be trusted to act legally? To obey the law? OK, in this case Johnson has no mandate from the people, but he still doesn't honour the people or the office by acting lawfully. That's a lesson in democracy?

I'd rather future generations see that by protest, by legal action and by using any legitimate route available, that we can force our elected representatives to reverse decisions that can do irreparable harm.

[said]

Right! Remain supporters need to be absolutely sure of what they are voting for. There is a new Brexit agreement on the table, I for one disagree with it wholeheartedly. It is little more than Theresa May's WD. But let us see just how much Remain people understand about the EU. Juncker, said in 2017 at the State of Union speech - that he advocates moving toward a centralised EU. Schultz and other EU fanatics have stated that they want a political union by 2025, with a central leader - which under present standing would be Juncker, leading an unelected senate. Even the EU Parliament has limited powers against the commission, so it would be an over powering, all encompassing, single government over all the member states. It will mean a single policy for each tax policy, foreign policy and a single policy for military command. The Commission is looking to ensure that all states not signed up to the single currency, will have done so by 2025. This means that if the UK were to rejoin the EU, we would have to agree to both the single currency and also the Schengen agreement for free movement and lose the rebate that Thatcher negotiated with the EEC. The UK interest rates would not be set by the Bank of England to suit UK requirements - they would be set by the central German bank. TM's agreement was to maintain all EU laws which has been included in the (binding) Political Declaration. We will of course be obliged to remain in the customs union and not have a Free Trade Deal as the government has promised. There would be no need for a UK Parliament, we would have a representative in the EU parliament who would be no more than an EU messenger. Local councillors in every seat in the UK, would be obliged to ensure that EU rules are followed in local areas. Even if you do not understand what the EU future intentions are completely- you cannot possibly fail to understand that this scenario will not be a democracy!

Brexit on the other hand - at least what the Brexit supporters are looking for, is to maintain our own independence to manage our own country in accordance with the resources that the UK itself owns or can achieve. It is looking to maintain our own Parliament to manage the country that it understands and with which it is familiar with. We wish to maintain the choice to change that Government every five years.
Our resources include our fisheries - that we need for our own economy. We have gas and oil. We have our own farming, with British farmers growing produce in the traditional way - not intensive farming where flavour and vitamins are lost. We have motor industries. We have advanced robotics. We have steel and tin mining. We have advanced internet communications - the country is far from dead!
Our technology development at present is owned by the EU on agreement -even though the EU invests far less than our own companies do. That technology is passed to the EU, but because of the organisation of the EU it takes time for it to become employed - new technology cannot wait, it is constantly changing. The UK will be free to put this technology into immediate use. Artwork, Communications are all subject to EU restrictions. Companies are subjected to reams of unnecessary policies which takes much of the working time to deal with. EU legislation of goods supports the EU protectionalist market more than it benefits people. There are several EU products that cause harmful effects.

The new agreement involves the UK being tied to the EU for the next couple of years, following all EU rules and regulations without having any say in any decisions - not that we ever had any anyway! It will mean that the UK will have to continue paying membership fees - not just of the amount the EU has quoted but that, plus £billions more! It will mean that we will not be free to decide our own trade agreements, it will mean that we still have to pay the high VAT applied by the EU, that the EU still owns our fishing until 2020, etc., But it does allow for the UK to opt out of the EU with no deal at the end of that period and that we are not tied to a customs union.

[said]

A General Election and a referendum are entirely different animals. For a start, a general election is based on a whole raft of issues. Manifestos are published. It isn't a grey area where few experts actually exist. It is a case of 'if we are elected, then we will...' It's down to the electorate to make a decision based on that information. Then it can easily be changed 4 years later.

The referendum was nothing like that. For a start, it shouldn't have been simplified to a two way decision with no question of a deal or none at all, given the myriad of complications that alone presents. It was based on lies, more lies, disinformation and a complexity of issues beyond anyone but a legal specialist in the subject. The remain side didn't do enough to get this point across. The leave side just lied through their teeth, led by career liars Johnson and Farage. The result cannot easily be changed 4 years later, as proven by our struggle to join the EU in the first place. Plus on rejoining we won't have the advantages we do now. We'd be in the Schengen Zone, and would, no doubt, have to accept the Euro as our currency.

There is a precedent for cancelling the results of referenda when the public have not been fully informed. And regardless of Brexiteers objections, none of us were fully informed. Even now, in any vox pop on any news channel, there is a huge misunderstanding regarding our membership of the EU and the advantages that go with it. Or disadvantages, dependent on your viewpoint.

The legality of the government's (and particularly the Prime Minister's) actions is being questioned in the courts. What kind of lesson in democracy is being taught when the legitimacy of the actions of the Prime Minister is having to be decided by a higher authority? How have we got to a position where the government cannot be trusted to act legally? To obey the law? OK, in this case Johnson has no mandate from the people, but he still doesn't honour the people or the office by acting lawfully. That's a lesson in democracy?

I'd rather future generations see that by protest, by legal action and by using any legitimate route available, that we can force our elected representatives to reverse decisions that can do irreparable harm.

Remain supporters were not lied to! The Brexit supporters were not given any facts or information about leaving either! It was a debate for Staying in or Leaving the EU. One does not just pick up an election paper, close their eyes and just make a stab in the general direction of a tick box. People weigh up the pros and cons on what they see and what they know. Obviously, the Remain people appear to have known little - and what's more? They appear to know even less now!

[Ceam]

You nor I know what the deal is. I'd like to think it was a bit more than a page long copy and paste that you have put. So a little pointless posting it.





Just remember the Brexit you want isn't necessarily the Brexit you're going to get, and here in comes the problem. Everyone's version of Brexit appears to be very different. The reason for this is we STILL haven't been given any FACTS.



" that he advocates moving toward a centralised EU. "
What he wants and what he gets are not the same thing. What I do know is that Germany's hand is a lot stronger with the U.K. not in the mix.

So what you see as being a remoaner as anti British, Is actually a remainer giving a better chance of ALL E.U. countries staying independent and not ruled by one country.
Because if we get anything resembling a decent deal, France will not be far behind us, Which will leave Germany as the overwhelming financial power within the E.U. Which as far as I can see is disrespecting my Grandparents sacrifice for a better world.

[Toodles McGinty]

Juncker, said in 2017 at the State of Union speech - that he advocates moving toward a centralised EU. Schultz and other EU fanatics have stated that they want a political union by 2025, with a central leader - which under present standing would be Juncker, leading an unelected senate.

Utter nonsense. Here is his 2017 speech. Care to point out where he said any of that?

And who is 'Schultz'? Do you mean Martin Schulz? He isn't even an MEP.

Even the EU Parliament has limited powers against the commission, so it would be an over powering, all encompassing, single government over all the member states. It will mean a single policy for each tax policy, foreign policy and a single policy for military command. The Commission is looking to ensure that all states not signed up to the single currency, will have done so by 2025.

First of all, where are the links to prove all of this, or is it John Redwood's diary again? If we remain, we don't have to join the Euro. Not now. Not any time.

This means that if the UK were to rejoin the EU, we would have to agree to both the single currency and also the Schengen agreement for free movement and lose the rebate that Thatcher negotiated with the EEC.

Yes, stupid to lose that, isn't it?

The UK interest rates would not be set by the Bank of England to suit UK requirements - they would be set by the central German bank. TM's agreement was to maintain all EU laws which has been included in the (binding) Political Declaration. We will of course be obliged to remain in the customs union and not have a Free Trade Deal as the government has promised. There would be no need for a UK Parliament, we would have a representative in the EU parliament who would be no more than an EU messenger. Local councillors in every seat in the UK, would be obliged to ensure that EU rules are followed in local areas. Even if you do not understand what the EU future intentions are completely- you cannot possibly fail to understand that this scenario will not be a democracy!

Again, citations please. Some links to the official EU website that proves all of this. Again, not Redwood's bizarre opinion. Actual links.

Brexit on the other hand - at least what the Brexit supporters are looking for, is to maintain our own independence to manage our own country in accordance with the resources that the UK itself owns or can achieve. It is looking to maintain our own Parliament to manage the country that it understands and with which it is familiar with. We wish to maintain the choice to change that Government every five years.

How does the EU stop you personally doing whatever it is you want to do? How does it place restrictions on you? We manage our own country. We are sovereign. We make our laws. But those laws, such as worker's rights, have to be in line with EU legislation. Considering EU legislation is mainly concerned with fairness across 28 states, what is your problem with it? In what area do you want the UK to change these laws in any way?

Our resources include our fisheries - that we need for our own economy. We have gas and oil. We have our own farming, with British farmers growing produce in the traditional way - not intensive farming where flavour and vitamins are lost. We have motor industries. We have advanced robotics. We have steel and tin mining.

Our fisheries, which is a tiny part of our economy, and so important that Farage never bothered to go to a single EU fisheries meeting, is hugely reliant on the EU as a market. I don't know how many times we've got to go through this before you listen, but our fishermen mainly catch fish that we really aren't that keen on. But the EU is. Check what we catch and where it is sold.

Gas and oil is running out. We don't produce the fruit and veg we want or the amounts we want. The infrastructure to do so would takes years, if not decades. Brexit is going to bring our farmers to their knees. 'Steel and tin mining'? What? You don't mine steel. You mine iron ore. Not here. We don't have iron ore mining. At all. Nor is there a working tin mine left in this country. There might be a few running as a tourist attraction, but none working. If there are, I can't find any evidence of them.

Do you research anything at all before writing, or are you just so desperate for these things to be true that you ignore reality completely?

We have advanced internet communications - the country is far from dead!
Our technology development at present is owned by the EU on agreement -even though the EU invests far less than our own companies do. That technology is passed to the EU, but because of the organisation of the EU it takes time for it to become employed - new technology cannot wait, it is constantly changing. The UK will be free to put this technology into immediate use. Artwork, Communications are all subject to EU restrictions. Companies are subjected to reams of unnecessary policies which takes much of the working time to deal with. EU legislation of goods supports the EU protectionalist market more than it benefits people. There are several EU products that cause harmful effects.

Again, citations please. Every expert on the subject states we will be far worse off by cutting ourselves off from the EU in these areas.

The new agreement involves the UK being tied to the EU for the next couple of years, following all EU rules and regulations without having any say in any decisions - not that we ever had any anyway! It will mean that the UK will have to continue paying membership fees - not just of the amount the EU has quoted but that, plus £billions more! It will mean that we will not be free to decide our own trade agreements, it will mean that we still have to pay the high VAT applied by the EU, that the EU still owns our fishing until 2020, etc., But it does allow for the UK to opt out of the EU with no deal at the end of that period and that we are not tied to a customs union.

We're going to be tied for years and years. They are only just getting the EU trade negotiators together. We've as much say as any other country in what goes on. And yes, we might leave without a deal, but it is economic suicide, regardless of John Redwood's bizarre emissions.

[silver fox]

Utter nonsense. Here is his 2017 speech. Care to point out where he said any of that?

And who is 'Schultz'? Do you mean Martin Schulz? He isn't even an MEP.



First of all, where are the links to prove all of this, or is it John Redwood's diary again? If we remain, we don't have to join the Euro. Not now. Not any time.



Yes, stupid to lose that, isn't it?



Again, citations please. Some links to the official EU website that proves all of this. Again, not Redwood's bizarre opinion. Actual links.



How does the EU stop you personally doing whatever it is you want to do? How does it place restrictions on you? We manage our own country. We are sovereign. We make our laws. But those laws, such as worker's rights, have to be in line with EU legislation. Considering EU legislation is mainly concerned with fairness across 28 states, what is your problem with it? In what area do you want the UK to change these laws in any way?





Our fisheries, which is a tiny part of our economy, and so important that Farage never bothered to go to a single EU fisheries meeting, is hugely reliant on the EU as a market. I don't know how many times we've got to go through this before you listen, but our fishermen mainly catch fish that we really aren't that keen on. But the EU is. Check what we catch and where it is sold.

Gas and oil is running out. We don't produce the fruit and veg we want or the amounts we want. The infrastructure to do so would takes years, if not decades. Brexit is going to bring our farmers to their knees. 'Steel and tin mining'? What? You don't mine steel. You mine iron ore. Not here. We don't have iron ore mining. At all. Nor is there a working tin mine left in this country. There might be a few running as a tourist attraction, but none working. If there are, I can't find any evidence of them.

Do you research anything at all before writing, or are you just so desperate for these things to be true that you ignore reality completely?



Again, citations please. Every expert on the subject states we will be far worse off by cutting ourselves off from the EU in these areas.



We're going to be tied for years and years. They are only just getting the EU trade negotiators together. We've as much say as any other country in what goes on. And yes, we might leave without a deal, but it is economic suicide, regardless of John Redwood's bizarre emissions.

Glad you took the trouble to go through this collection of inane ramblings, bottom line for all to consider, this devious government has refused to publish IT'S OWN economic assessment of Brexit with or without a deal, should be a clear warning to everyone.

[bensherman]

By the way there's very little chance of France or any other member choosing to follow us and leave.

The anti-EU movements peaked a while ago and are in decline. None of them are near a majority.

[2STEPS-IN-FRONT]

Utter nonsense. Here is his 2017 speech. Care to point out where he said any of that?

And who is 'Schultz'? Do you mean Martin Schulz? He isn't even an MEP.



First of all, where are the links to prove all of this, or is it John Redwood's diary again? If we remain, we don't have to join the Euro. Not now. Not any time.



Yes, stupid to lose that, isn't it?



Again, citations please. Some links to the official EU website that proves all of this. Again, not Redwood's bizarre opinion. Actual links.



How does the EU stop you personally doing whatever it is you want to do? How does it place restrictions on you? We manage our own country. We are sovereign. We make our laws. But those laws, such as worker's rights, have to be in line with EU legislation. Considering EU legislation is mainly concerned with fairness across 28 states, what is your problem with it? In what area do you want the UK to change these laws in any way?





Our fisheries, which is a tiny part of our economy, and so important that Farage never bothered to go to a single EU fisheries meeting, is hugely reliant on the EU as a market. I don't know how many times we've got to go through this before you listen, but our fishermen mainly catch fish that we really aren't that keen on. But the EU is. Check what we catch and where it is sold.

Gas and oil is running out. We don't produce the fruit and veg we want or the amounts we want. The infrastructure to do so would takes years, if not decades. Brexit is going to bring our farmers to their knees. 'Steel and tin mining'? What? You don't mine steel. You mine iron ore. Not here. We don't have iron ore mining. At all. Nor is there a working tin mine left in this country. There might be a few running as a tourist attraction, but none working. If there are, I can't find any evidence of them.

Do you research anything at all before writing, or are you just so desperate for these things to be true that you ignore reality completely?



Again, citations please. Every expert on the subject states we will be far worse off by cutting ourselves off from the EU in these areas.



We're going to be tied for years and years. They are only just getting the EU trade negotiators together. We've as much say as any other country in what goes on. And yes, we might leave without a deal, but it is economic suicide, regardless of John Redwood's bizarre emissions.

I agree I estimate 7 to 8 years no matter what happens ,I did say this before the referendum but was told by a host of leave ' not to be negative it will all be Ok in a few weeks people just panicking ' ! Amazing

[ausard2]

Smell the coffee we're leaving.

[ausard2]

Smell the coffee we're leaving.

[Toodles McGinty]

I agree I estimate 7 to 8 years no matter what happens ,I did say this before the referendum but was told by a host of leave ' not to be negative it will all be Ok in a few weeks people just panicking ' ! Amazing

Clueless aren't they. Not as clueless as this chap though: