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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamparilla View Post
    I do disrespect the covered market- it's yet another Sefton 'business' disaster. In the towns where they have been a success, it's because they still have a 'market feel' to them, but Sefton made Southport market look like a miniature department store, presumably so they could charge extortionate rents for the stalls. Now, they seem to be planning to throw good money after bad with a posh 'food court' idea, which in my view will be another disaster.
    I'm not here to defend Sefton's past interventions.
    We need responsiveness and effective citizen participation, certainly. But, that's another thread! Meanwhile …what about currently redundant retail space? What about a vision for a vibrant town?
    Last edited by sandGroundZero; 26/01/2020 at 02:16 PM.





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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandGroundZero View Post
    There are advocates of restoring the curves at Burscough junction — part of the movement to reverse some Beeching cuts. That would make it feasible to extend Merseyrail services through Southport and Ormskirk creating a useful new route. You could have trains circulating in both directions. Whatever the logic of removing the curves, restoring services could be a tonic for Southport and West Lancs.
    All of the above underscores my contention that it is folly to advocate Southport breaking its formal connections with Sefton (and/or the Liverpool City Region). Links are necessary. What is required is a thoroughgoing revision of citizens' participation in local and regional governance.
    I agree with you whole heartedly - except for remaining in Merseyside. The difficulty with opening the Burcough curves is because it cover two separate areas Lancashire and Merseyside. If Southport became an independent area it could make it easier in many respects since we are right on the borders of both areas. The Burcough Curves have never been built on and it is feasible to re-create lines to both Preston and Ormskirk linking with Southport. Southport is not on the actual Merseyside and to claim that it is only suits when it comes to voting. Most certainly continuing under Merseyside is a great folly for Southport we are on the back *** of Liverpool and being treated as such. Lancashire takes more pride in outlying areas and it has better planning. Liverpool features way down in the places that UK people visit most. Far more people are attracted to historic cities in preference to a mis match cultural metropolis, which are attractive only to students.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamparilla View Post
    I don't think that trying to revive the retail sector by replacing defunct department stores with something similar is the answer - it's a national problem, and Southport doesn't have anything unique to suggest that it would work here.

    Converting these places into 'residential units' begs the question of where the residents would work, unless of course they commute to Liverpool, and a plethora of single-occupancy apartments would lead to more bars, takeaways and night-time violence - something that is a problem in Southport already.

    I think that Southport should concentrate on developing its attractiveness to visitors with an emphasis on families - that's what made it 'famous', and many people in the north of England still regard Southport as a venue for a nice day out or a weekend away, although they're probably harking back to yesteryear.

    Although details haven't yet been revealed, the plans that Norman Wallis and Sefton MBC have to improve the Pleasureland site seem, in my view, to be the way forward.

    And if we wanted to be really ambitious, and could attract the investment, look what they're doing in Morecambe with a target of 1 million visitors a year:

    https://www.edenproject.com/media/20...ncs-expo-today

    Southport, in my view, needs a 'flagship' project like this to really put it back on the map.

    I think it's a crying shame that the planners allowed a prime seafront site like Ocean Plaza to be developed with outlets like Matalan, Pets At Home etc - places that visitors can find on retail parks where they live. In the past, that area was the home of Peter Pans and the outdoor pool, and they should have been replaced with visitor/leisure facilities, not national chain shops.

    How about a state-of-the-art ice rink/stadium, which could be home to a Southport ice hockey team and attract ice shows like Disney on Ice.

    Southport has to think big!
    Lamparilla's analysis of the problem is spot on, if you ask me.

    First and foremost, we must give them a reason to visit our town.

    Orwell said "If there is hope, it lies in the proles." Whilst champagne socialists see diversity idealised at university, the common folk experience it first hand in their neighbour hoods.

  5. #34
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    Politics parochialisms

    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    Most certainly continuing under Merseyside is a great folly for Southport
    Southport has its share of sentimental and downright parochial attitudes; no mistake. From a practical point of view however, cooperation and collaboration among communities is beneficial and disrupting formal links is counter productive.
    Southport distancing itself from its neighbours in the Liverpool City Region will only diminish the town in spite of rabble rousing activists' assertions. I expect West Lancashire will endeavour to maximise its links with the City Region. What's more, the north of England's other dynamic regions will work closely together to promote their common interests.


    said: …Liverpool features way down in the places that UK people visit most. Far more people are attracted to historic cities in preference to a mis match cultural metropolis, which are attractive only to students.
    I doubt this assertion. Can you offer evidence?
    Last edited by sandGroundZero; 26/01/2020 at 03:33 PM.

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  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Styx View Post
    Lamparilla's analysis of the problem is spot on, if you ask me.

    First and foremost, we must give them a reason to visit our town.


    Absolutely true - yes. There is room for both lots of ideas. The Station and surrounding area of Chapel Street could be invested in. The problem with Chapel Street on the station side was that they put up ugly concrete buildings which have now become tired and totally unattractive. If only they had renovated the area with 'Victorian' in mind it would have withstood the passage of time. Yes set the station back and create a social plaza area somewhere near the station and open up more roads through. Since Liverpool is considering putting in congestion charges for the centre - people working in Liverpool could catch the train instead. (Actually it is quicker travelling to Liverpool by train than road anyway)
    Several years ago when they first began all these building projects around town - I said then that there would be more bored youths and greater vandalism. But so far, that has not been borne out since the vandals live on the outskirts of town in cheap flats. This is good because after a long period of these vandals being constantly in trouble - the parents move on to somewhere else. It becomes someone else's problem.
    Morecombe is mentioned. No contest! Look at the beach at Morecombe compared to that of Southport. That is the main attraction. If Morecombe had the same beach as Southport it would not stand a chance.
    The same with Mr. Wallace's ideas. What is the point of having all the latest thrill rides when the façade of the fairground all round looks less than a thriving venue to say the least. It has become far too closed in and insular to the town, it is not attractive and it advertises that trade is slow by playing overly loud music at times. It could have railings put up to make it look more open, more greenery around the perimeter, and some good brickwork instead of that disastrous cracking plasterwork on the outside. It also needs to do away with the very unpopular sheet tickets and revert to tickets on rides, at reasonable cost!! Hell - even the little train run from the Plaza area was priced at a massive £5!! (London prices, it seems) and the track has been made to look open and less attractive with much of the greenery removed - oh, and the entrance station on the Plaza end has been removed. Whose bright idea was that, not! But even then - without an attractive beach, the fairground is nothing!

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  9. #36
    Lamparilla Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    The problem with Chapel Street on the station side was that they put up ugly concrete buildings which have now become tired and totally unattractive. If only they had renovated the area with 'Victorian' in mind it would have withstood the passage of time.
    I agree, but even a small, but welcome, improvement, i.e. the renovation of the dismal 'tunnel' leading from Chapel Street to the station was approved a couple of years ago, but hasn't happened. Goodness knows what visitors think if they arrive in Southport by train.

    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    Morecombe is mentioned. No contest! Look at the beach at Morecombe compared to that of Southport. That is the main attraction. If Morecombe had the same beach as Southport it would not stand a chance.
    I didn't mention Morecambe because of the beach. I mentioned it because the Eden Project chose it for their Eden North site. I wonder why they overlooked our 'Classic Resort'. Not because of the beach I would guess. Possibly because Morecambe has a much more progressive and innovative local authority than Southport does.

    As for Pleasureland, I think Norman Wallis deserves a huge vote of thanks for what he has done so far. It's been done out of private funds and, yes, improvements still need to be made, but given that he took it on when it was derelict and a target for vandals, he deserves a great deal of respect.

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  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandGroundZero View Post
    Southport has its share of sentimental and downright parochial attitudes; no mistake. From a practical point of view however, cooperation and collaboration among communities is beneficial and disrupting formal links is counter productive.
    Southport distancing itself from its neighbours in the Liverpool City Region will only diminish the town in spite of rabble rousing activists' assertions. I expect West Lancashire will endeavour to maximise its links with the City Region. What's more, the north of England's other dynamic regions will work closely together to promote their common interests.


    I doubt this assertion. Can you offer evidence?
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/united-kingdom/galleries/britains-best-cities/

    Southport people have always been more aligned with Manchester, Preston and Wigan than they have with Crosby, Bootle and Liverpool. Manchester is a far more successful city than Liverpool and there are more opportunities there for everyone. That is why our rail link to Manchester is of great importance to Southport.

    Liverpool neglects Southport but places investment into areas closer to the City. This is a silly idea since if Southport were to receive more investment it would be paid back ten fold from creating a more attractive area for tourists. No, we have been linked to Liverpool for more than ten years - we have received no support from the Combined Council and we have received nothing in return for the money we have paid into it. It is time to move the county lines so that we either become independent - we have now a far greater population from Liverpool people moving into the town, by which to achieve this - or to join in with Lancashire Council. Lancashire council are by far better managed than Liverpool Council. Liverpool have never recovered from the Hatton era and they are experiencing a similar issue on a big scale now, and it does not enjoy a high reputation globally because of it. Manchester faced a similar issue but have managed to overcome it quickly and it has not affected it greatly. Preston comes under Lancashire and is now becoming far more popular than it was before.

  12. #38
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    Politics the big picture

    This thread started: "What good ideas …for the three closed/closing store in Southport?" — discussion has ranged widely (as they do). There are of course, several strands:
    • retail woes, generally;
    • the importance of retail in the mix of Southport's visitor attractions;
    • Southport vis-à-vis other English sea-side resorts, and more.
    Lord Street features prominently in Southport's sales pitch. That being the case, empty retail premises are regarded as a gauge of the town's near-term prosperity. Having said that, the town attracts visitors for many reasons:
    • day trippers from comparatively close-by;
    • coach loads of day visitors;
    • golfing enthusiasts;
    • the coastal dune system and its ecology; …and on …
    Resort attractions are not the whole story, though, by any means. Every town & city needs to be liveable and Southport fares reasonably well; air quality must benefit, predominating breezes across the Irish Sea.

    Businesses dependent upon the visitor economy should be self-financing one way and another. We're not just a resort, we're a town with the same requirements as any other. The visitor economy has its ups and downs. Factors like the comparative appeal of foreign holidays versus the so-called stay-cation, for one. In the long run, all towns Southport included must attend to their respective infrastructure; not just the visitor amenities.
    Last edited by sandGroundZero; 26/01/2020 at 08:07 PM.

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  14. #39
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    It is a real problem to persuade independent businesses to open in retail premises. Over 30 years ago, we were living in Kent, but wanted to move to Southport. We sold up, and used the equity in the house as a deposit on a house in Southport and the rest, plus a bank loan used to open a retail business up here. Retail in the late 80s was booming, and being pushed as a leisure interest. We struggled to find an empty shop, having to pay a premium for the right location, but we then had 28 good years trading. But falling footfall (footfall dropped by over 25% in 5 years in our location up to 2018) and although we traded well on line, our suppliers had realised that they too could sell online and make the full margin on their goods, instead of selling at trade prices, and with their bigger marketing budgets killed our online sales. We had an opportunity to close, so we did. 4 jobs gone, but we had an enjoyable and interesting 28 years.
    Now, if I was in my 30s now, living in Kent and wanting to set up my own business using the equity in my house, would I choose retail? Certainly not. The startup costs - shop fit, commitment to leases, all the oncosts added over the last 30 years for health and safety measures, increased staff overheads with pensions, and holiday pay, having to open 7 days a week (we used to close on Sundays when we first opened) and then the high street full of empty shops, beggers, muggers and chuggers,car park charges, business rates. Too risky. I would look at trading online. For a fraction of shop overheads you could produce a professional website, and if you learned the skills of SEO and web design, would be even cheaper and flexible to changing trends.
    So when people talk about converting big shops to lots of small units, where are you going to find business people to take the units on?
    I think many of the shop units need to be converted to other use - probably housing as even offices are moving out of town, and the town centres will end up being much reduced in size. It is going to take decades.

  15. #40
    Lamparilla Guest
    @RobinC: that's a very interesting and informative post, and I'm sure that many independent retailers throughout the country share your experiences.

    I still think that there is a place for small independent retailers, because there are things that can't really be sold online. For example, Wesley Street in Southport has 'Cake Creations', where you can order a personalised gift cake, and there are businesses elsewhere where you can take something (e.g. a mobile phone, watch or PC) to be repaired, or items of clothing to be altered where you need to be there for a fitting.

    None of these businesses are really suited to online (e.g. for repairs, you need an expert diagnosis of the problem and an estimate before committing to buy), but they need specialist skills from the owner and a large degree of personalised service.

    As RobinC says, however, there are many challenges to having a physical presence in a town, and the odds are stacked against you.

    So, this brings us back to the development of town centres for leisure purposes. On a similar thread last year, I posted a link to some Room Escape Games:

    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attrac...d_Kingdom.html

    These are a novel way to attract visitors, and would be of equal appeal to local groups as well.

    It's this kind of 'out of the box' thinking that is needed.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamparilla View Post
    On a similar thread last year, I posted a link to some Room Escape Games:

    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attrac...d_Kingdom.html

    These are a novel way to attract visitors, and would be of equal appeal to local groups as well.

    It's this kind of 'out of the box' thinking that is needed.
    There's one in Stanley Street. Opened a a few months ago.

  17. #42
    Lamparilla Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by salus.populi View Post
    There's one in Stanley Street. Opened a a few months ago.
    Ah right, thanks - after a bit of searching, I found it. It's called Puzzology. No website, just a Facebook page and a mobile phone number. It's on Tripadvisor, but the page is blank.

    Good luck to them though - you've got to start somewhere, although things like this need a lot of promotion.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamparilla View Post
    Ah right, thanks - after a bit of searching, I found it. It's called Puzzology. No website, just a Facebook page and a mobile phone number. It's on Tripadvisor, but the page is blank.

    Good luck to them though - you've got to start somewhere, although things like this need a lot of promotion.
    https://www.puzzology.co.uk/

  19. #44
    Lamparilla Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by salus.populi View Post
    Thanks.

    The website is still being built - there's no information on it, although the booking page is working, so at least they've got their priorities right!

    Tripadvisor allow you to put a link to the website on their page, but i guess they're not quite ready yet.

  20. #45
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    Politics amusements instead of retail? …a step sideways

    …filling empty Lord Street retail premises with amusements?
    Unlikely to improve matters for the surviving retailers.

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