Keir Starmer

[Alikado]

Must be quite galling for Labour supporters who I remember telling us how Starmer the Lawyer would make mincemeat of Boris.

He has failed but its probably as much about his terrible shadow cabinet.

Still plenty of time to dump them and start again.

He reminds me of Gordon Brown clever and capable but a pretty hopeless leader.

Never fear, his time will come, there will be a day of reckoning, there will be blood on the carpet, heads will roll!

[sandGroundZero]

Labour must take advantage of changing demographics

The likelihood of Labour's loss of Hartlepool in tomorrow's parliamentary by-election alongside a poor showing in English Council elections in former so-called Red wall constituencies has prompted the suggestion that Labour's northern strongholds are no more. Instead its focus should shift to gaining south of England constituencies by appealing to younger, dispossessed (by economic changes) voters.

[Tentill4]

Add to this that Starmer's performing the fairly thankless undertaking of ridding his party of the toxic influence and legacy of Corbyn, and the earlier he gets at that the better.

I know he's set up the Forde Inquiry, which claims to be an independent investigations, but it can't be held as "Independent" if 3 out the 4 panellists are Labourites.

"The investigation has been set up in response to allegations that the Party has failed to deal appropriately with accusations relating to antisemitism, and by extension other forms of racism and offensive or inappropriate behaviour."

"Independence

In order to ensure the integrity of the investigation, the Panel will conduct the investigation independently of the Labour Party."

Baroness Lister of Burtersett - Labour peer since 2011
Baroness Wilcox of Newport - Welsh Labour councillor and made a Labour life peer in the 2019
Lord Lawrence Whitty - Was General Secretary of the Labour Party for 10 years

[Hamble]

If Starmer wants Labour to do well in Hartlepool he should....?




"As the byelection campaign continues, the Labour leader’s media appearances couldn’t be duller if he tried".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-stop-visiting

Does Starmer just lack charisma or is it
Quote
"MATT CHORLEY
Sir Keir Starmer is like a weatherman: you can never remember anything he says".
Matt Chorley
Friday September 11 2020, 5.00pm, The Times

[Toodles McGinty]

I expected him to have done better than he has so far, but I think it would be premature to give up on him, especially as there doesn't appear to be an obviously better alternative to him, whereas, in a contrast with the Tories, Johnson was always a better alternative to the useless May.

Add to this that Starmer's performing the fairly thankless undertaking of ridding his party of the toxic influence and legacy of Corbyn, and the earlier he gets at that the better.

Also, he was a bit unfortunate to keep on needing to self-isolate, plus much of his long-game strategy and approach re Johnson was predicated on the basis that the Government was making a consistent mess of handling the pandemic response, which it was, and that come 2021 and beyond the Tory's catalogue of failures would be extracting a high political price for them, which Labour could then take them to task for.

What he didn't reckon for was that the UK's vaccine strategy would transpire to prove a success, while the EU's vaccine strategy would transpire to prove a relative failure.

He has been lacklustre, but his strategy was mainly undone by unpredictable and fundamental circumstance changes outside of his control.

A good assessment.

I'd add the fact that Labour is in a constant state of infighting and schism, which while is hardly unusual, doesn't translate to a dependable option for the electorate. A small but highly vocal faction simply cannot get over the last leader, another loathe him and the rest, while the majority, are left wondering what the hell is going on.

For me, both had something to offer. I thought Corbyn's manifesto was a breath of fresh air, and one the country, as it turned out, would have benefitted from. Yet the man himself didn't help. I think Starmer offers a centre left path that isn't toxic to the electorate. He's intelligent, measured and a should present a version of social democracy that is palatable to business.

However, he isn't a ranting populist, and right now personality politics appears to be the flavour of the month. Although looking at both the corruption and the failures regarding the pandemic worldwide, exactly what these populists have to offer is unfathomable. UK, USA, Brazil, India, all massive failures regarding unnecessary deaths. Politics seems to have become a circus. And we all know about bread and circuses, though the 'bread' part seems to be lacking.

I think Labour is going to have a poor showing in the upcoming elections, particularly in Hartlepool, which might force them into a rethink regarding appealing to the electorate. Though I'm not sure what they can do to persuade people to vote for them. When not combing hair, or being a truly corrupt, lying, blustering goon is served up by the voting system, I imagine they are at a loss as to tactics. Add to that, the fact that the majority of votes doesn't translate to true representation within our electoral system, I can't see what the plan could be, beyond waiting for some mighty big chickens to come home to roost.

Interesting, though quite mystifying times.

[Toodles McGinty]

If Starmer wants Labour to do well in Hartlepool he should....?




"As the byelection campaign continues, the Labour leader’s media appearances couldn’t be duller if he tried".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-stop-visiting

Does Starmer just lack charisma or is it
Quote
"MATT CHORLEY
Sir Keir Starmer is like a weatherman: you can never remember anything he says".
Matt Chorley
Friday September 11 2020, 5.00pm, The Times

Good points.

I could say on the positive side, Clement Attlee was seen as terminally dull, yet is regarded by scholars as one of our greatest Prime Ministers. Having said that, the electorate is now so dumbed down that three word slogans are about as much as they can cope with. Actual policies are lost to the ether.

An indictment on society? Possibly. I can't think of any 'firebrands' that have turned out to be much use as leaders. Perhaps Churchill in wartime?

Yes, it's personality politics. Not great for the country, but unless there's a shift in the public's interest in actual politics, or possibly future generations are taught the subject from an early age, I can't see a light bulb moment for the voters of this country.

[Hamble]

Good points.

I could say on the positive side, Clement Attlee was seen as terminally dull, yet is regarded by scholars as one of our greatest Prime Ministers. Having said that, the electorate is now so dumbed down that three word slogans are about as much as they can cope with. Actual policies are lost to the ether.

An indictment on society? Possibly. I can't think of any 'firebrands' that have turned out to be much use as leaders. Perhaps Churchill in wartime?

Yes, it's personality politics. Not great for the country, but unless there's a shift in the public's interest in actual politics, or possibly future generations are taught the subject from an early age, I can't see a light bulb moment for the voters of this country.

Not remembering anything Starmer says is the biggest problem.
His Ministers and MP'S get more coverage good and bad.

Opinions too.
Starmer flips flops.
Intellectually he considers a subject so long he has become 'Captain Hindsight.'

His character is just not suited to the leader of a political party.

[Toodles McGinty]

Not remembering anything Starmer says is the biggest problem.
His Ministers and MP'S get more coverage good and bad.

Opinions too.
Starmer flips flops.
Intellectually he considers a subject so long he has become 'Captain Hindsight.'

His character is just not suited to the leader of a political party.

You've described the problem with today's politics in a nutshell. You're falling for personality politics. Populism. You're not alone by a long chalk.

Unless it's just party before country again.


'His character is not suited to the leader of a political party'. As I said, on paper, neither was Attlee. Looking at the leaders of the parties in this country:

Ed Davey? Seems a decent enough chap. No huge scandals. Blighted by the coalition and the previous leader. Anybody bothered to find out his policies?

Jonathan Bartley and Siân Berry? Anonymous. Actually got some excellent policies. But again, who bothered to find out.

Nicola Sturgeon? Her handling of the pandemic was, in my opinion, pretty good. Clear and concise. Many don't agree with her views on independence, but she's behaved pretty well for a politician. Speaks well.

Starmer? Intelligent. Measured. Not given to outbursts. I'm still not sure about his policies. Not an inspirational speaker.

Johnson? Pathological liar. Corrupt. Terrible orator.

So which has the character most suited to lead a political party? Even better, which is most suited to run a country to the greatest benefit of its citizens?

'Character'? I suppose that depends on what you want from a political leader. I'll take measured and considered any day over populist liars whose self interest overrides everything. I'll take dull over clowns with three word slogans. I'll take people's lives over infantile rants.

Sadly, it is a worldwide phenomenon, so nobody should feel bad about being sucked into it all. Just a shame people don't realise we're a country with millions in poverty, not a live streaming version of a shabby game show.

[sandGroundZero]

…I think Labour is going to have a poor showing in the upcoming elections, particularly in Hartlepool, which might force them into a rethink regarding appealing to the electorate. Though I'm not sure what they can do to persuade people to vote for them. …

The Labour party is dissolviing before our eyes. Starmer is not helping himself, but there is no escape from the fact that Labour's raisons d'être are extinguished. Non-Tory voters are all over the map — Labour, Scots Nationalists, Liberal Democrat, Plaid Cymru, Green — without any unifying themes. Tory, dishonest or not, is simply the most successful minority faction (and looks likely to remain so!)

[Toodles McGinty]

The Labour party is dissolviing before our eyes. Starmer is not helping himself, but there is no escape from the fact that Labour's raisons d'être are extinguished. Non-Tory voters are all over the map — Labour, Scots Nationalists, Liberal Democrat, Plaid Cymru, Green — without any unifying themes. Tory, dishonest or not, is simply the most successful minority faction (and looks likely to remain so!)

Yes, it seems so.

I do think the SNP will be the likely victors tomorrow, which will set off a renewed interest in independence.

I see Wales as a two party system, Plaid and Welsh Labour. I think they'll share the spoils.

Among the rest, yes I do think the Tories will clean up. As you say, they are the minority, but unless the voting system is reformed, it shall stay that way. 42% of the vote shouldn't represent an 80 seat majority, but it does. I can't remember (or should I say can't be bothered to look) when a PM was elected on an actual majority. I doubt it happens often.

As for Labour, they'll sort themselves out or disintegrate. Either utilise the methods honed by the parties and campaigning behind Brexit, or get left behind. I'd rather they (or other) parties were elected on policies, but that would need an engaged, intelligent electorate.

Might as well believe in the tooth fairy.

[Hamble]

You've described the problem with today's politics in a nutshell. You're falling for personality politics. Populism. You're not alone by a long chalk.

Unless it's just party before country again.


'His character is not suited to the leader of a political party'. As I said, on paper, neither was Attlee. Looking at the leaders of the parties in this country:

Ed Davey? Seems a decent enough chap. No huge scandals. Blighted by the coalition and the previous leader. Anybody bothered to find out his policies?

Jonathan Bartley and Siân Berry? Anonymous. Actually got some excellent policies. But again, who bothered to find out.

Nicola Sturgeon? Her handling of the pandemic was, in my opinion, pretty good. Clear and concise. Many don't agree with her views on independence, but she's behaved pretty well for a politician. Speaks well.

Starmer? Intelligent. Measured. Not given to outbursts. I'm still not sure about his policies. Not an inspirational speaker.

Johnson? Pathological liar. Corrupt. Terrible orator.

So which has the character most suited to lead a political party? Even better, which is most suited to run a country to the greatest benefit of its citizens?

'Character'? I suppose that depends on what you want from a political leader. I'll take measured and considered any day over populist liars whose self interest overrides everything. I'll take dull over clowns with three word slogans. I'll take people's lives over infantile rants.

Sadly, it is a worldwide phenomenon, so nobody should feel bad about being sucked into it all. Just a shame people don't realise we're a country with millions in poverty, not a live streaming version of a shabby game show.

A character who keeps a major election promise?

If you voted Labour despite your misgivings over Corbyn then you voted party first.

If you voted for Corbyn as a political leader then you fell for populism albeit a niche one.

If you voted for Corbyn's political policy's then I agree your next best option is to go rogue vote SNP.

[Hamble]

Never fear, his time will come, there will be a day of reckoning, there will be blood on the carpet, heads will roll!

Still hoping for a Far Left Coup?

[Alikado]

Still hoping for a Far Left Coup?

It will be a coup from within, he will be stabbed right between the shoulder blades.

[Toodles McGinty]

A character who keeps a major election promise?

If you voted Labour despite your misgivings over Corbyn then you voted party first.

If you voted for Corbyn as a political leader then you fell for populism albeit a niche one.

If you voted for Corbyn's political policy's then I agree your next best option is to go rogue vote SNP.

Major election promise? Which one?

Corbyn was never a populist. Currently Populism is the mark of the Trumps, Johnsons, Orbans, and Bolsonaros (and Farages) of this world. It's an anti-liberal policy, a threat to the well-being of the country. It's worked for the first four, though Farage is now whoring himself around on pay-per-view sites, so it didn't work out too well for him. Though Farage won't end up in court, whereas I'm certain the others will. Eventually.

I voted for Corbyn because of his manifesto. I still say it was the best I'd seen in a while. And it was definitely for the good of the country. For the many, and all that. Both times.

I voted for Starmer in the leadership election. I thought he was the best on offer at the time. I still say on paper he's the best of the bunch. Long -Bailey was just a continuity candidate, and in the end it was pretty much all there was on offer. Though my first choice would have been Thornberry.

For me there's a middle ground between the economy and the welfare state / NHS, worker's rights, and nationalised industries such as rail, water, power. Mainly because we don't have much choice in those anyway.

After that, when it comes to actual candidates, I'd vote for someone with the good of the country at heart. Someone decent. Though that's a bit of a stretch when it comes to politics. I'd say that those party leaders I mentioned (with the exception of Johnson), with slight variations in policy, do have that.

And yes, if they'd move the Scottish border to somewhere around Cheshire, then the SNP would get my vote

[local]

Must be galling I suppose to be trounced by the likes of Farage and Johnson at the polls.

The great hope (of some) Starmer can't seem to land a fig on Johnson who just swats him away as some minor irritant beneath his pay grade.

Starmers problem is not so much him as the Corbyn years he supported and the lamentable lot in his shadow cabinet.

Starmer is above his skill set now.

Even the ropey pandemic start is providing shadow pickings for the opposition as the electorate understands the issues better.

Labour just needs a ruthless summer where they reconnect with all the people they ignored during their "Islington Years"