The Grammar Police. Who finds them an irritant?.

[Toodles McGinty]

SPaG is taught to young children from Year 1. By the time they reach Year 6, young students should be completely familiar with basic English grammar. In fact there is a specific focus on grammar today, as opposed to earlier education systems in which grammar formed part of all essay writing. The result of this present system is, that most children can form completely correct sentences, but have a lack of intuitive writing. Many young minds are so concentrated on 'rational grammar' that they lose the ability to link sentences in an interesting context, then wonder why their writing ability does not conform to the books that they are given to read. Hence the reason why text talk is so popular.

Not the EU then.

[said]

Not the EU then.

Quite possible since they have run interference in everything else!

[Hamble]

They are not allowed in my workplace lest they cause offence to the many people deprived of a basic education through abuse neglect or newly arrived to the Country with a first language that is not English.

Respect cannot harbour irritation.

[Derek H]

I've tried to explain that I don't think grammar and punctuation are one and the same thing. Obviously, it is beyond my capabilities to get it across in a manner that is acceptable. I found this on the net, which I think explains the matter in a very satisfactory manner, and far better than I can. I hope people will take the time to read it, even though it is a bit on the long side.

Quote
Let’s get technical for a minute. What, exactly, is grammar?

Here’s what Wikipedia says:

In linguistics, grammar is the set of structural rules that govern the composition of sentences, phrases, and words in any given natural language. The term refers also to the study of such rules. Linguists do not normally use the term to refer to orthographical rules, although usage books and style guides that call themselves grammars may also refer to spelling and punctuation.

Technically speaking, in linguistics and academia, spelling and punctuation are not components of grammar. When we discuss the mechanics of writing, we don’t refer to grammar. We refer to grammar, spelling, and punctuation because spelling and punctuation are separate components from grammar.

So how is grammar meaningful if words aren’t spelled properly and if punctuation isn’t applied correctly in a piece of writing? Aren’t spelling and punctuation critical to the structure of written language?

Grammar and Orthography

There are two common ways that language manifests: it is either spoken or written. Grammar deals with how we structure the language, and it is applied to both speech and writing. Orthography, on the other hand, addresses the rules of a language’s writing system or script.

Orthography deals with spelling and punctuation, because these elements are only relevant when the language is written.

After all, when you say a sentence aloud, you don’t say full stop, question mark, or exclamation mark at the end. However, if you’re reading the sentence aloud, you need these punctuation marks to help you navigate the text, and they also provide cues that inform the way we stress words or inflect the reading.

Proper Grammar and Popular Grammar

I’m not a linguist. I’m a writer. I’m interested in linguistics and etymology, but only to the extent that these fields of study inform my writing and can help me better understand how to use the tools of my craft.

Grammar addresses how we structure our language and includes concepts such as tense agreement, modifiers, sentence diagramming, word order in a sentence, and sentence order in a paragraph.

But when we’re dealing with written language, proper spelling is just as essential as tense agreement. It would be quite difficult to get through a written text that was not punctuated or if the majority of the words were spelled incorrectly.

Grammar, Spelling, and Punctuation

Oddly, I’ve found that spelling and punctuation are misused far more than structural (or grammatical) elements in writing. Most people know how to put their words in order, and a writer of average skill is usually good at verb and tense agreements and other aspects of writing that would be construed as grammatical in nature.

Yet plenty of people struggle with orthography (punctuation and spelling) even if their grammar is in good order. This makes sense, because we are primarily exposed to spelling and punctuation through reading and writing. But the structure of our language comes to us through listening and speaking as well.

In other words, we writers are probably far more immersed in grammar than we are in orthography.

Putting it All Together

Technically speaking, grammar may not include spelling and punctuation, but we need all these elements in our writing. We talk about grammar, spelling, and punctuation because these are separate but related elements that work together to produce a mechanically sound piece of writing.
Unquote

[Derek H]

Why ?

if you met someone with a different dialect, would you not take it as part of them ?

Taking someone as they are is the mark of a receptive and tolerant person.

You've lost me again. Where is the logic? What on earth has a dialect to do with this? Dialects are, of course, acceptable. Some you like, some you don't like. But they are acceptable. Even on the BBC nowadays.

[Hector]

Derek: Wikipedia articles are written by old people in dressing gowns and slippers. It's good for their egos and mental health, but sadly it's not a reliable source of information.

As I tried to explain earlier, when written and spoken English language is assessed using analytical judgement criteria developed by Cambridge University, punctuation comes under the umbrella of grammar.

As I am sure you know, Derek, when we move beyond simple sentences we start to combine clauses to create complex sentences. You will also know that there are different sorts of clause, such as defining and non-defining, and it is the use, or omission, of commas which determines if the writer produces a clause which defines or does not define. It is for reasons such as this that Cambridge (and other universities concerned with assessment) has decided that punctutation cannot, for practical purposes, be viewed as distinct from grammar.

If you are interested, we could discuss other aspects of language, such as the difference between grammatical words and lexical words, which also concerns unis like Cambridge. I know, this Derek, because I work with them. And I find the distinctions they make more reliable than someone's granny who finds tapping away on her laptop and adding to Wikipedia helps her arthritis.

[Derek H]

Derek: Wikipedia articles are written by old people in dressing gowns and slippers. It's good for their egos and mental health, but sadly it's not a reliable source of information.

As I tried to explain earlier, when written and spoken English language is assessed using analytical judgement criteria developed by Cambridge University, punctuation comes under the umbrella of grammar.

As I am sure you know, Derek, when we move beyond simple sentences we start to combine clauses to create complex sentences. You will also know that there are different sorts of clause, such as defining and non-defining, and it is the use, or omission, of commas which determines if the writer produces a clause which defines or does not define. It is for reasons such as this that Cambridge (and other universities concerned with assessment) has decided that punctutation cannot, for practical purposes, be viewed as distinct from grammar.

If you are interested, we could discuss other aspects of language, such as the difference between grammatical words and lexical words, which also concerns unis like Cambridge. I know, this Derek, because I work with them. And I find the distinctions they make more reliable than someone's granny who finds tapping away on her laptop and adding to Wikipedia helps her arthritis.

She's hardly old and she's not in a dressing gown. At least in the photo. And I doubt she is someone's Granny - not yet at least.https://www.writingforward.com/about-creative-writing

[Hector]

She's hardly old and she's not in a dressing gown. At least in the photo. And I doubt she is someone's Granny - not yet at least.https://www.writingforward.com/about-creative-writing

Lol.

But still old enough to be a 'granny' Derek. We don't discuss things like that on this forum do we!

[Hector]

You've lost me again. Where is the logic? What on earth has a dialect to do with this? Dialects are, of course, acceptable. Some you like, some you don't like. But they are acceptable. Even on the BBC nowadays.

I'm afraid you are muddling dialect and accent. Local's non-standard use of structure and punctuation could well be dialectal if it's consistent.

[Derek H]

Lol.

But still old enough to be a 'granny' Derek. We don't discuss things like that on this forum do we!

I think we have to agree that we have different opinions regarding grammar, punctuation and spelling. You can stick to yours and I'll stick to mine.

[local]

You've lost me again. Where is the logic? What on earth has a dialect to do with this? Dialects are, of course, acceptable. Some you like, some you don't like. But they are acceptable. Even on the BBC nowadays.

That I suppose is the problem in a nutshell you don't understand or more likely don't want to understand.

It's a public forum where people from all backgrounds exchange views, putting form over content and in your case usually instead of content adds nothing to the subjects discussed.

I would take your corrections in good spirit if you actually contributed beyond your fetish.

[Ceam]

They don't really bother me, I often spell things wrong or use incorrect grammar.
I even appreciate it at times, especially if they can come up with a rule I can remember to correct my error. I find is amusing at times that people think they are some how better than you just because they know when to use an comma rather than a full stop.

We all have our strengths and our weaknesses.

[SteveandLois]

One last try:

Punctuation is part of grammar. We use grammar to make sentences, and parts of sentences and we use punctuation to help us identify these sentences and parts of sentences.

Word choice is not grammar. This is known as vocabulary.

This distinction is not mine. It is Cambridge University's distinction and The University of Brunswick's distinction. Both prepare English language exams to determine the language level of those who want to live and, or work in a number of countries where English is an official language.

Ioftenwonderwhatthelongbarisonthebottomofmykeyboard?

[Derek H]

I've read a few of the posts again, and I notice that Hector and Said have very much in common. They both claim to have contacts with academia and those who know everything (Cambridge and and a Canadian University in the case of Hector) and to have in depth knowledge of the subject (both Said and Hector claim this). But neither of them have ever, (as far as I can remember), posted a link that underpins their claims.
I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

[Hector]

Ioftenwonderwhatthelongbarisonthebottomofmykeyboard?

scripto continua


Rules!