The Governments Downfall?

[Alikado]

Okay the accepted current obstacles to a deal are on our waters and state aid.


Very simple would you give control over either to our Government or another state ?

Oh and by Government that could well be a Labour Government.

I can't get my head around why you consider giving access to British waters as giving control of our Government to another State, it makes good sense as our waters contain little fish that we want and in return we would get access to fish we do want.
State Aid is always part of any Trade Deal and even if we go onto WTO terms there are regulations to stop dumping.

[Toodles McGinty]

"Okay the accepted current obstacles to a deal are on our waters and state aid. | Very simple would you give control over either to our Government or another state?" — post #89

the classic PRISONERS' (of Brexit) DILEMMA

Cooperate and give up a little sovereignty; or don't cooperate and impoverish citizens & country?

It is exactly this. Deal or no deal. Trade deals are built on compromise, not some Quitter's wet dream of sticking it to the EU.

We'll get a deal, probably, framed as the bullying EU stealing our sovereignty. Just as that gammon-headed ***-wipe did on QT a few weeks ago, crying about EU bullies. How old was he? Five?

Or we'll be dragged into Victorian levels of poverty by kleptofascists, cheered on by swivel-eyed flag-sha**ers, while a fishing industry they didn't give a shiny shite about until 2016 either goes under or is willingly sold back to the present owners - foreign based corporations - just as British fishermen have done before.

We'll cling onto 'sovrinty' for no good reason at all, while populist politicians run roughshod over our rights and institutions.

Meanwhile Johnson, in this job he always craved, always thought he was entitled to. The 'World King's' place in history cemented as the hated feeble side-kick of a malignant, sociopathic SpAd; the flabby figurehead of the most illiberal, oppressive, incompetent, corrupt and damaging government we’ve ever known.

Well done if you're hitching your wagons to that. Pure genius. Should I wrap the jester's hat and pig-bladder on a stick, or will you wear them home?

[local]

"Okay the accepted current obstacles to a deal are on our waters and state aid. | Very simple would you give control over either to our Government or another state?" — post #89

the classic PRISONERS' (of Brexit) DILEMMA

Cooperate and give up a little sovereignty; or don't cooperate and impoverish citizens & country?

How do you give up a little sovereignty ?

You either have supreme power or authority or you don't.

Would your compromise mean we stayed a little in the EU ?

How about something other than fish in our waters where would your compromise end ?

[silver fox]

How do you give up a little sovereignty ?

You either have supreme power or authority or you don't.

Would your compromise mean we stayed a little in the EU ?

How about something other than fish in our waters where would your compromise end ?

You keep banging on about fishing rights and state aid, you have been told more than once that any trade deal with anyone, including WTO agreements, will contain some aspect of state aid where it involves subsidies, most of the fish caught in British waters we don’t want anyway and are exported to the EU.

There is also the thorny and possibly even thornier problem of trying to rewrite the withdrawal bill, accept that to all intents and purposes NI remains within the EU, this means the EU border is at the Irish Sea, or NI leaves along with the rest of the UK, which then puts the EU border back between The Republic of Ireland and NI, which of course no-one wants, take your pick.

[Hamble]

The Brexit vote result has been well documented analysed and tabulated.

It is clear the result gave a voice and power to those who in other circumstances are out voted.

It is all here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes...vour_of_Brexit

[local]

You keep banging on about fishing rights and state aid, you have been told more than once that any trade deal with anyone, including WTO agreements, will contain some aspect of state aid where it involves subsidies, most of the fish caught in British waters we don’t want anyway and are exported to the EU.

There is also the thorny and possibly even thornier problem of trying to rewrite the withdrawal bill, accept that to all intents and purposes NI remains within the EU, this means the EU border is at the Irish Sea, or NI leaves along with the rest of the UK, which then puts the EU border back between The Republic of Ireland and NI, which of course no-one wants, take your pick.

How many times does it have to be pointed out its about control of waters not mackerel, cod or crab ?

Do you want to rethink this ?

you have been told more than once that any trade deal with anyone, including WTO agreements, will contain some aspect of state aid where it involves subsidies

Its not very popular on here but i think the decision should rest here if we wish to support our economy.

If our trading partners don't like it then they can say so.

[silver fox]

The Brexit vote result has been well documented analysed and tabulated.

It is clear the result gave a voice and power to those who in other circumstances are out voted.

It is all here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes...vour_of_Brexit

We know all this, after a propaganda campaign based on lies, deceit and fraudulent statements? we got a referendum on an advisory ref leaving the EU, then we have “get Brexit done Johnson” the country sadly voted for this, that deal is done and dusted.

Now it’s well past time for the con men to come up with the goods, so far all we see is lamentable failure, remember this affects ALL of us, for better or worse.

Currently I don’t see the slightest reason for going down this road in the first place, surely common sense is that we have an amicable, co-operative and practical working agreement with the neighbours, if that means being a part of the EU, then so be it, until or unless there is a better solution out there.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water is neither sensible nor clever, but here we go regardless.

[silver fox]

How many times does it have to be pointed out its about control of waters not mackerel, cod or crab ?

Do you want to rethink this ?

you have been told more than once that any trade deal with anyone, including WTO agreements, will contain some aspect of state aid where it involves subsidies

Its not very popular on here but i think the decision should rest here if we wish to support our economy.

If our trading partners don't like it then they can say so.

What!!!! Virtually every economist is forecasting that Brexit will cause much more and much longer damage to our economy than even the C-19 pandemic, it’s also quite clear that our current trading partners don’t like it.

Brexiteers are all gungo about going alone, we will very shortly find the reality.

[Alikado]

How many times does it have to be pointed out its about control of waters not mackerel, cod or crab ?

Do you want to rethink this ?

you have been told more than once that any trade deal with anyone, including WTO agreements, will contain some aspect of state aid where it involves subsidies

Its not very popular on here but i think the decision should rest here if we wish to support our economy.

If our trading partners don't like it then they can say so.

What value are these waters, we don't want the fish in them we want the fish that Johnny Foreigner catches that is why our fishermen sold their quotas, it was not worth catching to sell at rock bottom prices on our markets, do a deal to swop!?

[Toodles McGinty]

The Brexit vote result has been well documented analysed and tabulated.

It is clear the result gave a voice and power to those who in other circumstances are out voted.

It is all here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes...vour_of_Brexit

That's an interesting page. Of all that text, just a few lines about the economy. More about age and education levels. Large amounts about immigration. Large amounts basically about the ease with which the public are swayed. Similar to the Trump campaign, which is no huge surprise considering who was behind both and who ultimately gains, the theme of 'you poor folk have been left behind by the 'elite' was pushed hard. Even though the eventual winners will be those far richer than the 'elite' they railed against, and the losers will still be those 'left behind'.

It was certainly a fascinating exercise in 'nudge theory'.

What value are these waters, we don't want the fish in them we want the fish that Johnny Foreigner catches that is why our fishermen sold their quotas, it was not worth catching to sell at rock bottom prices on our markets, do a deal to swop!?

No value at all without the ability to sell the catch to Europe profitably. Which means a free trade deal. It is a tiny fraction of our economy, but the gullible bought into Farage's 'Britannia rules the waves' crap. The man who never once went to an EU fisheries meeting to fight our trawler's corner.

There's no dispute about Brexit. It's happening. There are only two ways to go. We can have a free trade deal and hopefully a smooth transition to being on our own. Still be worse off, because no trading bloc in their right minds would allow us to quit and keep all the benefits.

Or we fill all those gigantic lorry parks, which they haven't built just for fun. I'd imagine those gullible enough to vote for this nonsense will also be gullible enough to believe it's all the EU's fault when it goes baps up. For people so desperate for sovereignty, I bet they'll be in no great rush to personally own this.

[silver fox]

That's an interesting page. Of all that text, just a few lines about the economy. More about age and education levels. Large amounts about immigration. Large amounts basically about the ease with which the public are swayed. Similar to the Trump campaign, which is no huge surprise considering who was behind both and who ultimately gains, the theme of 'you poor folk have been left behind by the 'elite' was pushed hard. Even though the eventual winners will be those far richer than the 'elite' they railed against, and the losers will still be those 'left behind'.

It was certainly a fascinating exercise in 'nudge theory'.
.

The really sad part of that and frankly disgraceful part, your mate Cummings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! freely admitting that one of the big swings came from, as he puts it, "Johnson and Gove picking up the baseball bat marked Turks/NHS£350million" both blatant lies, yet Cummings reckons that they they alone produced at least 650million votes for leave, in fact he doubts whether the Leave vote would have been successful without that fraudulent ploy.

Then we have Brexiteers blabbering on about freedom and democracy, with an arch Brexiteer telling you that you have been conned, some freedom, some democracy, bloody disgrace..

[said]

You keep banging on about fishing rights and state aid, you have been told more than once that any trade deal with anyone, including WTO agreements, will contain some aspect of state aid where it involves subsidies, most of the fish caught in British waters we don’t want anyway and are exported to the EU.

There is also the thorny and possibly even thornier problem of trying to rewrite the withdrawal bill, accept that to all intents and purposes NI remains within the EU, this means the EU border is at the Irish Sea, or NI leaves along with the rest of the UK, which then puts the EU border back between The Republic of Ireland and NI, which of course no-one wants, take your pick.

Most of the fish exports from the UK involve shellfish, which remain near our shores all the year round. The other fish stock in British waters do not recognise political control - the varieties of fish move in accordance with seasons, feeding grounds and spawning grounds, which may or may not be in British waters.

The fact is that the British Isles owes its whole existence to fishing - as with all islands - fishing is a primary resource. Most of the EU fish is caught in the North Sea, while Spain has the greatest quotas from our waters with France coming in at second place.

Under WTO rules, subsidies are mainly applied to agricultural goods but the WTO exists to ensure the smooth trading of goods.

" One country’s subsidies can hurt a domestic industry in an importing country. They can hurt rival exporters from another country when the two compete in third markets. And domestic subsidies in one country can hurt exporters trying to compete in the subsidizing country’s domestic market. If the Dispute Settlement Body rules that the subsidy does have an adverse effect, the subsidy must be withdrawn or its adverse effect must be removed."

Why is that? Norway and Sweden have been managing fine with their borders for many years.

[Alikado]

Most of the fish exports from the UK involve shellfish, which remain near our shores all the year round. The other fish stock in British waters do not recognise political control - the varieties of fish move in accordance with seasons, feeding grounds and spawning grounds, which may or may not be in British waters.

The fact is that the British Isles owes its whole existence to fishing - as with all islands - fishing is a primary resource. Most of the EU fish is caught in the North Sea, while Spain has the greatest quotas from our waters with France coming in at second place.

Under WTO rules, subsidies are mainly applied to agricultural goods but the WTO exists to ensure the smooth trading of goods.

" One country’s subsidies can hurt a domestic industry in an importing country. They can hurt rival exporters from another country when the two compete in third markets. And domestic subsidies in one country can hurt exporters trying to compete in the subsidizing country’s domestic market. If the Dispute Settlement Body rules that the subsidy does have an adverse effect, the subsidy must be withdrawn or its adverse effect must be removed."

Why is that? Norway and Sweden have been managing fine with their borders for many years.

Why do Spain & France have the quotas of our fish?
Because our fishermen have sold them!

[silver fox]

Why do Spain & France have the quotas of our fish?
Because our fishermen have sold them!

Careful, reality and truth are total strangers to Brexiteers, they simply won’t understand.

[Toodles McGinty]

The fact is that the British Isles owes its whole existence to fishing - as with all islands - fishing is a primary resource. Most of the EU fish is caught in the North Sea, while Spain has the greatest quotas from our waters with France coming in at second place.

We did. We don't now. It is such a tiny percentage of our GDP, it fades into insignificance. It's another slice of Faragian bull, a subject he's decided will pull on the Quitter's heartstrings, yet did absolutely nothing about when he was an MEP.

Now our economy is almost entirely dependent on the service industry, but you can't get coverage from the media by sailing up the Thames on a router.

Like it or not, the closure of factories such as the Ford plant recently is because of the uncertainty surrounding Brexit. How many more livelihoods have to be lost to the cause? We can't have that much foot left to shoot ourselves in. All for something 99.9% of the population didn't give a monkey's about 5 years ago.

So much 'winning'. I do hope the workforce at Bridgend are proud to be martyrs for the cause when they're claiming benefits. Perhaps Vote Leave will have a whip round for them?