Democracy? Shamocracy!

**Toodles McGinty** · 09/10/2020 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Hamble

My answer remains the same.
The Civil Service is supposed to be neutral in politics.

The civil service has been accused of obstructing Brexit.

The Left Wing Civil Service should keep their views private so they cannot be accused of being left wing!

But who is the 'left wing civil service'? Who is the 'right wing' civil service?

**said** · 09/10/2020 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Hamble

My answer remains the same.
The Civil Service is supposed to be neutral in politics.

The civil service has been accused of obstructing Brexit.

The Left Wing Civil Service should keep their views private so they cannot be accused of being left wing!

Oh yes they can. And yes they were also against Brexit. The Civil Service is the only employment sector which enjoys protected full time employment and regular wages. This includes all the emergency services, education and health workers.

Since Thatcher's ruling against Trade Unions, and that over the years few of the working classes in the private sector have full time protected work now - the Unions turned to the Public Sector where most of their members are drawn from because those members enjoy steady pay and can afford membership.

It was not difficult for those trade unions to persuade their institution employed members to vote against Brexit which threatened those Unions European standing. Remember Mc.Donnell's speeches?

**Toodles McGinty** · 10/10/2020 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by said

Oh yes they can. And yes they were also against Brexit. The Civil Service is the only employment sector which enjoys protected full time employment and regular wages. This includes all the emergency services, education and health workers.

Since Thatcher's ruling against Trade Unions, and that over the years few of the working classes in the private sector have full time protected work now - the Unions turned to the Public Sector where most of their members are drawn from because those members enjoy steady pay and can afford membership.

It was not difficult for those trade unions to persuade their institution employed members to vote against Brexit which threatened those Unions European standing. Remember Mc.Donnell's speeches?

Apart from the leader of the country's biggest union being pro-Brexit and possibly doing as much as Farage to make it happen, that would make sense.

Just because you repeat the same old bull$h!t, it doesn't become true.

**silver fox** · 10/10/2020 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by said

Oh yes they can. And yes they were also against Brexit. The Civil Service is the only employment sector which enjoys protected full time employment and regular wages. This includes all the emergency services, education and health workers.

Since Thatcher's ruling against Trade Unions, and that over the years few of the working classes in the private sector have full time protected work now - the Unions turned to the Public Sector where most of their members are drawn from because those members enjoy steady pay and can afford membership.

It was not difficult for those trade unions to persuade their institution employed members to vote against Brexit which threatened those Unions European standing. Remember Mc.Donnell's speeches?

Some very creative thinking there, sadly the net result is a load of BS, never mind you will get something right eventually? possibly? maybe? or perhaps not.

**Little Londoner** · 11/10/2020 10:20 AM

As they are about to receive yet another extremely generous pay rise the cry "we have nothing to do with our pay rises" will be ringing out loud. Millions of jobs on the teetering crumbling edge of the abyss with a cut to Universal Credit coming and the pigs are in the trough AGAIN. If a body of people is responsible for the rise then who selected the body making the decision and who has the power to reject their findings and cancel any rise it surely can't be the pigs who will benefit.

If ever there was a Government who were going to cause a civil war in this Country we couldn't have a better bunch of idiots.

**sandGroundZero** · 11/10/2020 11:04 AM

Performance related pay for MPs:

basic salary at the national median wage; plus
additional payments in keeping with annual performance reveiws.

But what should the criteria be for judging effective performance?
And who should judge?

**Toodles McGinty** · 11/10/2020 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Little Londoner

As they are about to receive yet another extremely generous pay rise the cry "we have nothing to do with our pay rises" will be ringing out loud. Millions of jobs on the teetering crumbling edge of the abyss with a cut to Universal Credit coming and the pigs are in the trough AGAIN. If a body of people is responsible for the rise then who selected the body making the decision and who has the power to reject their findings and cancel any rise it surely can't be the pigs who will benefit.

If ever there was a Government who were going to cause a civil war in this Country we couldn't have a better bunch of idiots.

This country is more divided than in living memory. Possibly in centuries.

Unless Brexit is a magnificent success, which even the hardiest Quitter should by now have realised it won't be, and a vaccine is forthcoming, the divisions are going to go from fractures to gaping chasms. The battle lines aren't immediately obvious, but they are growing. There's the Union, there's the possibility of tearing up the GFA, there's Remain / Quit, there are racial divisions, there are growing incidents of hate crimes. Now the powers that be have thrown a handy north / south divide in there too. The possibilities of what could happen in the next 6 months are looking very dark indeed.

European acquaintances on social media, particularly the French, are asking why we aren't rioting in the streets. I reckon we are about 4-5 months from that. The peasants could soon be revolting.

As Lisa Nandy said this morning, there hasn't been an anti-government anger like this since the 80s. It might not be apparent in the leafy lanes of Birkdale, but in other northern towns and cities it's palpable. There might be a few uber Al Kemal fans swooning on here, but even among his own, he's fast becoming toxic. As Thatcher found to her cost, you lose the right wing rags, the hard right of the party will soon be circling.

There's only one way out, and I find myself actually rooting for it, and that is to propose a concrete, fair plan, and stick to it. There's still time for cross-party solutions. No more 'world beating' and 'moon shots', just the hard grind of putting the public interests front and centre.

**bensherman** · 11/10/2020 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by jonboi

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Whilst our Prime Minister Boris Johnson was an amusing character in a typically “British” way prior to becoming Prime Minister, he has proved himself during his short period as PM to be less amusing with his “catch phrases” and what turns out to be meaningless and pointless rhetoric, and more of a chaotic leader, in fact, no leader at all! The clues were there when he was Mayor of London – the London Garden Bridge which cost millions and never happened. Buying rusty old German water cannons (3) which also cost millions and had to be sold for scrap (but I mean, Water cannons in the UK?! What was the thinking there?). The ill-thought out Boris Bikes. And an airport in the Thames estuary for Gods sake!

So just at a time when good leadership is desperately needed, we have Johnson.
We also have a secretive, manipulative, right-wing government which is working to remove the checks and balances which have existed in our democracy for hundreds of years, and which makes our democracy work. Look at the Civil Service heads of department who have resigned under pressure. Look at the threat to our established legal System. The illegal proroguing of Parliament and the subsequent sacking of those Conservatives who didn’t agree with the government. It’s about replacing neutral, level headed people who know how a democracy works with your own people to fit a pretty unpleasant agenda. This removal of the checks and balances just doesn’t happen in a democracy!

There’s also a low-key “chumocracy” in government as well, whereby contracts are awarded quietly to Conservative backers and supporters and cronies without going out to tender as is required in a normal and fair democratic society. This is particularly worrying for the future of the NHS!

There are though, fortunately within the Conservative party; MP’s and members who valiantly oppose the direction this government is going, but even they are slowly being neutralised.
Our democracy: we may not like how it works all the time but it does work. Remove those checks and balances, those fair and democratically minded people of whatever political persuasion, and you head towards a dangerous place. Anyone who has studied recent history will see the frightening parallels between our position today in the UK with a right-wing and populist government (a deadly combination) and early Germany in the 1930’s – different circumstances but the same mindset.
No, I’m not a “Loony Leftie” but neither am I a “Raving Right-winger” not a Liberal either, but a citizen of a once proud and democratic UK, and I want to keep it that way. To do that, we have to oppose what this government is trying to do in subtly undermining democracy on every level.

The writing was on the wall when Johnson became leader and agreed a withdrawal agreement he had allegedly resigned over shortly before.
Then tried to get parliament to agree it in less time than it had recently spent discussing the treatment of circus animals.
Which led to hysterical behaviour demanding an electon. Cox's speech was a new low in parlamentary behaviour
So Johnson got his election, and before it cleared out members of his party who might have the brains and courage to question things. Instead created a gallery of zombies, a group into which our own MP fits easily.
The WA was the centrepiece of their campaign, and it was clearly either not properly understood or dishonestly agreed. I can't think of an example in my 50 plus years of adult life of a more cynical deceit at an election
Since then we have seen parliament dragooned into voting away its right to approve trade deals; the security committee simply left moribund to delay the revealtion of the Russia report; Cummings dictating policy and people; and Gove lying deliberately and copiously.

**said** · 11/10/2020 05:01 PM

No, I’m not a “Loony Leftie” but neither am I a “Raving Right-winger” not a Liberal either, but a citizen of a once proud and democratic UK, and I want to keep it that way. To do that, we have to oppose what this government is trying to do in subtly undermining democracy on every level.[/QUOTE]

A proud and democratic UK?? Why has it taken you so long to express your views?. You can go back to the Thatcher years to see how the UK was being undermined. Thatcher did not win a majority vote - she did not have the support to impose several policies that she herself favoured, any opposing groups were looked upon as 'outsiders' so compromising their rights of citizenship. Making opponents the enemy is not democratic.

Moving forward in time - Blair was far from being a supporter of democracy. Everyone is familiar with the Iraq War, Afghan War and the Kosovo War etc., which each went against the democratic views of the UK, he also weakened the NHS by introducing privatisation of various departments and re-organised Parliament to give the House of Commons more powers, while awarding the largest number ever of his cronies peerages creating an imbalance of party politics in Parliament.

Yet only now have you become disillusioned?

**sandGroundZero** · 14/10/2020 10:13 AM

Boris Johnson’s talk of restoring sovereignty is a lie.
He is handing democratic power to economic elites, not the people

Boris Johnson recited the standard Tory mantra:

“The state must stand back and let the private sector get on with it.”

Excoriating the government (while not forgetting its Loyal Opposition):

The popular desire to take back control is genuine. But it has been cynically co-opted by the government, which has instead passed power from elected bodies to economic elites. The principal task of those who challenge oligarchic politics in any nation is to offer genuine control to the people, relinquishing centralised power and rewilding politics. Yes, the state should stand back. It should stand back for the people, not for the money.

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