Brexit again

[Hamble]

TBH, H, I thought about it long and hard. The one thing I worried about within the EU was the rise of far-right governments and groups - in Hungary, Greece, Italy, Poland etc.

So I started reading, a lot, about why this sudden interest in leaving, who was behind the Leave campaign, who gains, who loses. Not so much the 'front' men - Farage is a joke, obviously. There were the standard odious turds, the UKIP coterie - Carswell (who seems to have found a new career in the US stopping women's right to choose) and Evans, all singularly useless.

Then you've the 'Britannia Unchained' bunch, that worryingly now hold Cabinet positions. Kwarteng, Patel, Raab, Truss. I don't know if you've ever read it. It's a short read, but extremely disturbing. A far-right pamphlet describing how British workers are the laziest, most uneducated idiots in the world. How the removal of worker's rights will make everyone more productive. That Britain would be much better without regulations and safety measures. It's factually inaccurate and sort of fantasy politics, not rooted in reality. Alongside those you've Gove & Cummings. Not great.

Then you've got the real money and influence behind it all. The Elliotts, the people behind Cambridge Analytica, basically the same people behind Trump's campaign. All roads eventually lead to Russia. As Phillip Hammond said, only one country will gain from the EU being weakened. Billionaires and oligarchs that benefit from Britain being alone, without the constraints of the larger influence and laws of Europe.

It all sounds very far fetched initially, but a little digging and it's all there. The Guardian did an excellent series uncovering it all, so it isn't exactly a secret. All they needed was a populist leader to take it over the line: enter Johnson. I don't think he cares less whether we are in or out. He's virtually admitted as much. But it was a short cut to Number 10. He's heavily involved with Russia, basically buried the Russia report, installed a Russian oligarch in the Lords, Carrie is big in the 'Conservative Friends of Russia' group - As are the Elliotts.

Its all very incestuous. And leaves us as a country out on our own. There are the obvious economic reasons to remain - we must be the only country ever to negotiate a trade deal that puts up barriers to trade that weren't there before, and leaves us intentionally worse off. But mostly it's the movement behind it all that is disturbing. A concerted campaign to rile up the public using racism and jingoistic themes to achieve the goal.

Its all beside the point now, but it is interesting how social media was used to influence us. How nudge theory uses algorithms to push individuals into believing lies. How easy it is to demonise entire swathes of populations or even countries, and make us work against our best interests.

It does, however, leave us with the worst Tory government at the worst time in living memory. Assembled for one reason, and one reason only. Brexit. It's incredibly unlucky that the pandemic came along (although inevitable at some point) when it did. I'd say the last Cabinet would have handled it much better. I think even the most vociferous Tory voter would agree on that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not seeing an abundance of talent on the other side of the aisle, either. I'm not seeing Starmer & co as the answer to all our prayers. Such is the state of British politics right now. Floundering. I did say we'd miss May & co at some point.

Anyroad, sorry for the excessively long post, and I understand if you write TL: DR. But you had to ask

Well I did not expect that.

No economic and social arguments?

I try to stick to news that is corroborated not read the speculation on social media outlets.

[Toodles McGinty]

Well I did not expect that.

No economic and social arguments?

I try to stick to news that is corroborated not read the speculation on social media outlets.

We've been through the social and economic arguments. Economically it is simply stupid. Socially it is damaging. There are no positives. The damage is already apparent. Particularly to SMEs. Our own government is telling people to move their businesses to the EU.

As for the rest, it isn't speculation on social media, the Guardian and other news outlets have covered it extensively. As I said, none of it is secret or mysterious. All of the connections are a matter of public knowledge.

I take it you don't accept, despite all evidence to the contrary from the CIA and MI5, that Russia interfered in elections on both sides of the Atlantic? Or that China constantly bombards us with hacking attempts thousands of times a day.

I suppose there's no 'Lord of Siberia' in the Lords, either. And the Russia Report doesn't exist?

Not everyone wants to take that deep a look. If you wish to keep your politics to extremely pro-government, it saves getting angry about corruption and interference from outside agencies. And corruption in our own government. I guess if you don't believe it, you don't worry about it. Nothing wrong with that.

Shame, because unless people get angry about it, we'll never have reform. And our system badly needs reform.

[sandGroundZero]

The issues concerning the EU are long standing, and have been suppressed by those whose single aim was to create a new elite and European empire. — post #372

Perry Anderson

"Few Brexiteers, I think, would disagree with his overall interpretation."

— A devastating indictment of the EU

This extract (above) sizes up the link, nicely.

[sandGroundZero]

Glad to see you read the article and actually understood what Perry Anderson wrote rather than just take an out of context sound bite to support your bias, and to misinform.
It seems that if you don't like a well researched, objective and neutral opinion by Perry Anderson, which blows apart the left/right reasons for leaving or staying in the EU and how far back in history these facts have their origin, you will deflect and distract by using a small element out of context using the emotive "Brexiteer" label to ignorantly try to discredit the article as a whole. — post #375

The first thing to say is that you had linked to Robert Tombs' summary of Perry Anderson's tedious three instalment essay in the London Review of Books. I could only read the first instalment without subscribing to the LRB. However, on the strength of that it appears that Anderson has done what he famously does; that is, bore the pants off readers with his turgid Marxist analysis.

Perry Anderson's career-long anti-imperialism is, paradoxically, highly nationalistic. His objections to the EU have been concisely reiterated by many other anti-EU nationalists.

The issues concerning the EU are long standing, and have been suppressed by those whose single aim was to create a new elite and European empire.

…is in a word, ABSURD.

I recommend you read (Perry's brother) Benedict Anderson’s Imagined Communities (1983). It's far more interesting and readable.

[said]

TBH, H, I thought about it long and hard.
Anyroad, sorry for the excessively long post, and I understand if you write TL: DR. But you had to ask

All smoke and mirrors! Do you in all honesty expect that the powers that be - would have allowed the UK to leave the EU if it was going to be devastating for the country?
Farage is a close colleague of David Cameron. He did the job he was paid to do - namely over ride the BNP and start the ball rolling for Brexit. The baton was picked up by Cummings who played his part well for the Conservatives over Brexit and was retained to kick start the Pandemic - he has also done his job now. In the meantime - a World recession was playing out from 2018, with the USA attempting to initiate widescale protectionalism on behalf of the USA - still likely to fail because businesses will seek out the cheapest prices for materials which would come from outside the USA. The USA still reeling from the oil excesses and the drop in value of the dollar, had to request a far higher ceiling loan than anticipated leading to a domino effect. Japan, Italy, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, China, Arab Emirates etc., all faced recession. The UK went into recession which was helped out buy the first lockdown in March, began to steady up until November, aided by a short lockdown over Christmas - but looks like we will head for a brief double slump from which the UK will recover rapidly. China has already recovered and is back to normal, Russia is complying every time it is nudged, Arab Emirates are back to normal, Germany suffered a slump in manufacturing output, Italy will receive a massive E222 billion, and we should all be on our way.

[sandGroundZero]

All smoke and mirrors! Do you in all honesty expect that the powers that be - would have allowed the UK to leave the EU if it was going to be devastating for the country?
Farage is a close colleague of David Cameron. He did the job he was paid to do - namely over ride the BNP and start the ball rolling for Brexit. The baton was picked up by Cummings who played his part well for the Conservatives over Brexit and was retained to kick start the Pandemic - he has also done his job now. In the meantime - a World recession was playing out from 2018, with the USA attempting to initiate widescale protectionalism on behalf of the USA - still likely to fail because businesses will seek out the cheapest prices for materials which would come from outside the USA. The USA still reeling from the oil excesses and the drop in value of the dollar, had to request a far higher ceiling loan than anticipated leading to a domino effect. Japan, Italy, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, China, Arab Emirates etc., all faced recession. The UK went into recession which was helped out buy the first lockdown in March, began to steady up until November, aided by a short lockdown over Christmas - but looks like we will head for a brief double slump from which the UK will recover rapidly. China has already recovered and is back to normal, Russia is complying every time it is nudged, Arab Emirates are back to normal, Germany suffered a slump in manufacturing output, Italy will receive a massive E222 billion, and we should all be on our way. — post #377

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[Hamble]

We've been through the social and economic arguments. Economically it is simply stupid. Socially it is damaging. There are no positives. The damage is already apparent. Particularly to SMEs. Our own government is telling people to move their businesses to the EU.

As for the rest, it isn't speculation on social media, the Guardian and other news outlets have covered it extensively. As I said, none of it is secret or mysterious. All of the connections are a matter of public knowledge.

I take it you don't accept, despite all evidence to the contrary from the CIA and MI5, that Russia interfered in elections on both sides of the Atlantic? Or that China constantly bombards us with hacking attempts thousands of times a day.

I suppose there's no 'Lord of Siberia' in the Lords, either. And the Russia Report doesn't exist?

Not everyone wants to take that deep a look. If you wish to keep your politics to extremely pro-government, it saves getting angry about corruption and interference from outside agencies. And corruption in our own government. I guess if you don't believe it, you don't worry about it. Nothing wrong with that.

Shame, because unless people get angry about it, we'll never have reform. And our system badly needs reform.

Labour voters put their belief in a man who denied the evidence of Russian murders on British soil so I don't think that argument will help.

If bugging and vote rigging went on whilst we were in the EU what has the UK got to lose?

I read a wide range of news sources and cross check the facts.
One cannot do that on the news sources you like msn/twitter or Leftwing today.

The Pandemic has done more economic damage than Brexit so far.

[silver fox]

Labour voters put their belief in a man who denied the evidence of Russian murders on British soil so I don't think that argument will help.

If bugging and vote rigging went on whilst we were in the EU what has the UK got to lose?

I read a wide range of news sources and cross check the facts.
One cannot do that on the news sources you like msn/twitter or Leftwing today.

The Pandemic has done more economic damage than Brexit so far.

The pandemic, bad though it is, will not be forever, Brexit is very much long term or permanent.

Brexiteers using the pandemic for any failings is disingenuous.

[Toodles McGinty]

Labour voters put their belief in a man who denied the evidence of Russian murders on British soil so I don't think that argument will help.

If bugging and vote rigging went on whilst we were in the EU what has the UK got to lose?

I read a wide range of news sources and cross check the facts.
One cannot do that on the news sources you like msn/twitter or Leftwing today.

The Pandemic has done more economic damage than Brexit so far.

So asking for evidence that Russia was involved in the Skripal poisoning is equivalent to basically being a puppet of Mother Russia, interference in our democracy, installing oligarchs in the Lords, burying the Russia report, and the whole manipulation of elections or the referendum? You are utterly obsessed with Corbyn. Totally, utterly obsessed.

It's fairly obvious you either refuse to read all the evidence, or your Stockholm syndrome is so ingrained the possibility that the governing party is anything but saintly is unacceptable. Ironic that the flag wavers, so quick to screech 'you're not a patriot', will accept the wholesale betrayal of Britain, as long as an old Etonian is doing it.

Vote rigging and bugging is illegal. And intolerable. It isn't a matter of having nothing to lose. You know the repercussions, you aren't stupid. We have an immense amount to lose.

I've never said I read MSN, I don't know what 'Leftwing Today' is. I do read Twitter. There are many links to respected news sources on there. And people. None of them being Paul Staines. As I said, most of the information is from the Guardian.

Brexit will damage the country for decades to come. All to support the weakening of the EU by Russia, and disaster capitalists making a fat profit at the expense of ordinary Britons. There's a word for people who will happily betray our country: traitors.

And as usual, all political discussion is rendered completely pointless by 'party over country'. Party first, no matter what. Quite disgraceful.

[Hamble]

So asking for evidence that Russia was involved in the Skripal poisoning is equivalent to basically being a puppet of Mother Russia, interference in our democracy, installing oligarchs in the Lords, burying the Russia report, and the whole manipulation of elections or the referendum? You are utterly obsessed with Corbyn. Totally, utterly obsessed.

It's fairly obvious you either refuse to read all the evidence, or your Stockholm syndrome is so ingrained the possibility that the governing party is anything but saintly is unacceptable. Ironic that the flag wavers, so quick to screech 'you're not a patriot', will accept the wholesale betrayal of Britain, as long as an old Etonian is doing it.

Vote rigging and bugging is illegal. And intolerable. It isn't a matter of having nothing to lose. You know the repercussions, you aren't stupid. We have an immense amount to lose.

I've never said I read MSN, I don't know what 'Leftwing Today' is. I do read Twitter. There are many links to respected news sources on there. And people. None of them being Paul Staines. As I said, most of the information is from the Guardian.

Brexit will damage the country for decades to come. All to support the weakening of the EU by Russia, and disaster capitalists making a fat profit at the expense of ordinary Britons. There's a word for people who will happily betray our country: traitors.

And as usual, all political discussion is rendered completely pointless by 'party over country'. Party first, no matter what. Quite disgraceful.

The effect of Brexit on the economy is yet to be felt.
The effect of the Pandemic is reported on every day therefore all my comments are observational and verified(sadly) not speculative.

Brexit voting was cross party.I seem to remember old Cameron was a Remainer so bit rubbish to accuse me of party first.

A point here for further reference:
If you berate other people for voting for a bigoted racist white man expect to be reminded who you voted for.

[sandGroundZero]

re: post #381

I would suggest the possibility that 'Leftwing Today' is, in fact the Guardian.

What is more, each and every deluded Labour voter in the two most recent general elections did so in the fervent belief of HIS divinely socialist infallibility.

[Incidentally unlike Tory voters who know that Conservative leaders blunder monumentally, but have a good heart.]

[Hamble]

re: post #381

I would suggest the possibility that 'Leftwing Today' is, in fact the Guardian.

What is more, each and every deluded Labour voter in the two most recent general elections did so in the fervent belief of HIS divinely socialist infallibility.

[Incidentally unlike Tory voters who know that Conservative leaders blunder monumentally, but have a good heart.]

'Leftwing Today' was a joke.

Good hearted?

You will like this sGZ.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/lette...emitism-crisis

[Alikado]

Labour voters put their belief in a man who denied the evidence of Russian murders on British soil so I don't think that argument will help.

If bugging and vote rigging went on whilst we were in the EU what has the UK got to lose?

I read a wide range of news sources and cross check the facts.
One cannot do that on the news sources you like msn/twitter or Leftwing today.

The Pandemic has done more economic damage than Brexit so far.

We've only been out less than a month, the pandemic struck a year ago.

[local]

Labour voters put their belief in a man who denied the evidence of Russian murders on British soil so I don't think that argument will help.

If bugging and vote rigging went on whilst we were in the EU what has the UK got to lose?

I read a wide range of news sources and cross check the facts.
One cannot do that on the news sources you like msn/twitter or Leftwing today.

The Pandemic has done more economic damage than Brexit so far.

Your poking a sore point.

The judgment of people who would even consider Corbyns Labour party as worthy of running the country is poor and they get very upset at their own failings to understand the public mood.

So they vent their frustration at anyone and anything.

His deputy and lickspittle Starmer is now in the hot seat.

Imagine ever voting for a Prime Minister who would openly seek to overturn a democratic vote.

[Hamble]

Your poking a sore point.

The judgment of people who would even consider Corbyns Labour party as worthy of running the country is poor and they get very upset at their own failings to understand the public mood.

So they vent their frustration at anyone and anything.

His deputy and lickspittle Starmer is now in the hot seat.

Imagine ever voting for a Prime Minister who would openly seek to overturn a democratic vote.

Ahh!
Captain hindsight!

Having just given his piece over video link as he is self isolating for the 3rd time Boris gives his reply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83IZKeQuInk