Brexit again

[silver fox]

A) You think the UK would have abandoned the £?

B) 'Free movement' means exactly that.

C) Schengen helps not hinders human trafficking.

D)You missed corbyngate?

Why should we have abandoned the pound sterling?

Free movement means, freedom to travel, live and work within the EU, it was never intended to be an open door for migrants on the benefits trail.

How does Schengen help traffickers?

Corbyn is gone, not the best by a long way, rode on a wave of Momentum, which frankly was not the way forward for many none Tories.

[Hamble]

How do you imagine that countries run without both socialist and capitalist endeavours? Neither system running exclusively is conducive to the good of a country. We support a socialist endeavour if we see our GP or pay Council Tax, we support a capitalist endeavour when we buy our shopping. Should we only trade with governments whose politics we approve of? If so, I'm not sure we can even trade within the UK.

The EU is more of a level playing field than virtually any other political venture. Worker's rights, Human rights, freedom of movement, freedom to live, learn, work in 27 other countries without limits or red tape is invaluable. Freedom to trade in a single market, in a customs union is priceless. Well, not quite, companies here and within the EU are paying a hefty price to trade with each other now.

We weren't in the Schengen zone. Human traffickers don't give a monkey's about easy border crossing. They'll find a way. I sincerely doubt we'll have less trafficking to the country this year than last year. They won't just say 'call it off lads, Britain isn't in the EU any more'. But what we won't have is the cooperation with EU countries with regard to crime and criminal intelligence. Apparently our police accessed the EU's criminal database literally millions of times a day. It's gone. Which makes, to my mind, the UK a safer place for traffickers.

Corbyn stoked nothing. I've criticised him for many things, and I don't think he did enough to stamp out antisemitism, but I don't think he stoked it either. The far right is here. In the halls of Westminster. A populist government elected on a single issue which was stoked by racism.

Capitalist EU should not be a prop up fund for far left Socialism or its leaders.

Schengen states aid Human slavery.
Not all trafficked people come from outside the EU.

https://europeanbordercommunities.eu...n-border-areas


Corbyn and the far left did actually incite hate crime.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...dated-15159671

[Hamble]

A) No plan to abandon the pound had we remained. Though, it could conceivably become a condition of re-joining somewhere down the line.

B) Yes, the ability to live and work wherever you like....sounds pretty good to me!

C) True. But I wouldn't scrap free movement and lose all its many benefits, just because there is some trafficking. Let's not forget, trafficking also happens into the EU from elsewhere. Scrapping Schengen wouldn't stop that either.

D) Not a fan of Corbyn. Not a fan of Labour either. But I feel both he and Labour were subject to a dirt-digging media campaign, that latched onto the anti-semitic story and kept it mainstream till the election.

A)
B) ?
C)
D)

[Toodles McGinty]

Capitalist EU should not be a prop up fund for far left Socialism or its leaders.

Schengen states aid Human slavery.
Not all trafficked people come from outside the EU.

https://europeanbordercommunities.eu...n-border-areas


Corbyn and the far left did actually incite hate crime.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...dated-15159671

Where is there far-left socialism within the EU? Name one EU country that is a 'far-left' socialist state?

The page you linked to doesn't prove Schengen aids trafficking. It poses a question for research. The findings aren't there. Trafficking is a worldwide problem, it isn't centred around the EU. And do you honestly, hand on heart believe that the criminals who perpetrate such heinous acts will stop their trade to the UK because we've left the EU? You think they respect borders, or will suddenly ply their lucrative trade elsewhere because we're piling red tape on imports and exports of cheese?

Antisemitism has nothing to do with our membership of the EU. Jeremy Corbyn has nothing to do with our membership of the EU.

[Hamble]

Where is there far-left socialism within the EU? Name one EU country that is a 'far-left' socialist state?

The page you linked to doesn't prove Schengen aids trafficking. It poses a question for research. The findings aren't there. Trafficking is a worldwide problem, it isn't centred around the EU. And do you honestly, hand on heart believe that the criminals who perpetrate such heinous acts will stop their trade to the UK because we've left the EU? You think they respect borders, or will suddenly ply their lucrative trade elsewhere because we're piling red tape on imports and exports of cheese?

Antisemitism has nothing to do with our membership of the EU. Jeremy Corbyn has nothing to do with our membership of the EU.

You misunderstood.
Corbyn and his far left party stood for Government in the Election.
That is what his supporters voted for.
Some also wanted their cake and eat it voting for a far left home rule and Remain in Capitalist EU.

A link is really not needed to prove human trafficking and slavery of Europeans as it is for non Europeans.

https://link.springer.com/article/10...10-020-09467-y

[Hamble]

Where is there far-left socialism within the EU? Name one EU country that is a 'far-left' socialist state?

The page you linked to doesn't prove Schengen aids trafficking. It poses a question for research. The findings aren't there. Trafficking is a worldwide problem, it isn't centred around the EU. And do you honestly, hand on heart believe that the criminals who perpetrate such heinous acts will stop their trade to the UK because we've left the EU? You think they respect borders, or will suddenly ply their lucrative trade elsewhere because we're piling red tape on imports and exports of cheese?

Antisemitism has nothing to do with our membership of the EU. Jeremy Corbyn has nothing to do with our membership of the EU.

Jeremy Corbyn has nothing to do with our membership of the EU?

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto-2019...say-on-brexit/

[Hamble]

?
Figures prior to the Brexit vote:

Citizenship of registered victims (identified and presumed)
Nearly one quarter (22%) of registered victims of trafficking were citizens of the reporting
country, in the EU28 2015-2016. Nearly one quarter (22%) were citizens of other EU Member
States. Thus, nearly half (44%) were citizens of the EU and just over half (56%) were
non-EU citizens.
The top five EU countries of citizenship of registered victims in 2015-2016 were Romania,
Hungary, the Netherlands, Poland and Bulgaria. These are the same countries as in 2010-
2012 and in the first Commission Progress report.
The top five non-EU countries of citizenship of registered victims were Nigeria (2
094),Albania(1 397), Vietnam (1 099), China(739)and Eritrea(287). For 2010-2012,
Eurostat found the top five non-EU countries of citizenship of victims of trafficking registered
in the EU were: Nigeria, Brazil, China, Viet Nam, and Russia. In the first Commission
Progress report for years 2013 and 2014, with respect to non-EU citizens, the top five
countries with the highest number of victims were Nigeria, China, Albania, Viet-nam and
Morocco. In 2015-2016 and 2010-2012 and 2013-2014, Nigeria, Viet Nam and China were
in the top five countries of citizenship of registered victims of trafficking in the EU.
Around three-quarters (74%) of the registered victims of Nigerian citizenship were
trafficked for sexual exploitation. Less than one in twenty (4%) were trafficked for labour
exploitation. Nearly one quarter (23%) were trafficked for ‘other’ forms of exploitation. Nearly
half (1 012 out of 2 084) of the victims with Nigerian citizenship were registered as victims in
Italy; and nearly one quarter (500 out of 2 084) were registered as victims in the United
Kingdom. The victims were overwhelmingly female (1 483 females and 66 males).
Caution over the interpretation of differences in numbers of registered victims is
warranted as authorities, agencies, and organisations may have different practices for
identifying victims.

? Member States with the highest number of registered victims
The top five countries where victims of trafficking are registered are different when the
focus is on the proportion of the population rather than on the absolute number. When the
focus is proportion (registered victims per million of the population), the top five Member
States for registered victims in the period 2015-2016 are: the Netherlands (72), the
United Kingdom (54), Cyprus (53), Hungary (51), and Austria (44).
When the focus is
on absolute numbers, the top five are the United Kingdom (7 071),
Netherlands (2 442),
Italy (1 660), Romania (1 636) and France (1 516). This means that, while the
Netherlands and the United Kingdom are in the top five in both proportional and
absolute measures, the other three countries in the top five for proportions are Bulgaria,
Cyprus, and Hungary, while for absolute numbers these are Italy, Romania, and France.

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/si...tion-study.pdf

[Toodles McGinty]

Jeremy Corbyn has nothing to do with our membership of the EU?

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto-2019...say-on-brexit/

Yes, in his manifesto he promised a second referendum. He was noticeable by his absence throughout most of the Brexit debacle. On the fence. He followed Benn's teaching, anti-EU. You have something in common.

?Figures prior to the Brexit vote:


Citizenship of registered victims (identified and presumed)
Nearly one quarter (22%) of registered victims of trafficking were citizens of the reporting
country, in the EU28 2015-2016. Nearly one quarter (22%) were ...


...Netherlands and the United Kingdom are in the top five in both proportional and
absolute measures, the other three countries in the top five for proportions are Bulgaria,
Cyprus, and Hungary, while for absolute numbers these are Italy, Romania, and France.


https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/si...tion-study.pdf

And you think that the traffickers are going to give up on the UK because of blue passports? In or out of the EU, in or out of Schengen, we are obviously a lucrative market. Illegal immigrants don't sail into Dover. They don't fly into John Lennon. Nor will traffickers.

So, these 'far-left' socialist EU countries? Which are they?

[said]

Follow the link. Either everyone who heard him say that he'd guarantee no deal is off the table is lying, or Johnson is lying. Which is it?

I mean it's not likely to be the man who has been sacking for lying and incompetence in every single job he's had, is it? Sure.

The UK government said it won't put up a hard border? The UK government said there wouldn't be a no deal. The UK government are utterly incompetent, assembled to deliver a no deal Brexit.

It won't matter who puts a border up, if the EU insist on a hard border, it's our fault. No Brexit, no hard border.

I'm not arguing the minutiae, I don't care how many times Johnson has blown smoke up your ar$e. It's down to Brexit and if the bombs start, it's down to Brexiteers. Whatever shitstorm is approaching, just hold your hands up and own it.

It's what you voted for, it's what you've got. Don't complain now, just own it. Shouldn't you be celebrating?

The costs payable to the EU by the UK would have been zero under a No Deal agreement. The costs now amount to around £39 Billion


"Originally, the settlement was estimated to be about £39bn, but a lot of that was paid as the UK's regular contributions to the EU budget.


From January 2021, there was about £25bn left to pay by 2057, according to the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), almost £18bn of which will be paid in the first five years." In the early years, a lot of that will be paying for a share of spending that the EU committed to while the UK was a member, but has not yet funded.
Most of the money paid in later years will be contributions towards funding the pensions of EU staff.


The UK will also continue to make contributions to take part in three EU programmes for 2021-27:

• Horizon Europe research scheme
• Euratom nuclear research programme
• Copernicus, the earth monitoring project

As part of its participation in Euratom, the UK will also continue to be involved with the ITER project to use magnetic fusion to develop a new type of power plant.


It will also be able to access the services of the EU Space Surveillance and Tracking programme, although it will not participate in it.


We do not yet know how much the UK will pay to be involved with these programmes - it will be calculated based on the size of the UK's economy, compared with the size of the whole of the EU economy.





BBC NEWS


That is the legacy of the EU!

[Toodles McGinty]

You misunderstood.
Corbyn and his far left party stood for Government in the Election.
That is what his supporters voted for.
Some also wanted their cake and eat it voting for a far left home rule and Remain in Capitalist EU.

A link is really not needed to prove human trafficking and slavery of Europeans as it is for non Europeans.

https://link.springer.com/article/10...10-020-09467-y

I've not misunderstood. Corbyn wasn't 'far left'. He was socialist. Nor is the party 'far left'. Anybody that far left would join the SWP or Communist party.

The things Corbyn stands for - a mixed economy, municipal provision of housing, utilities under democratic control - were perfectly acceptable to genuine Conservatives like, for eg, Macmillan. The problem is that the modern Conservatives (and their media lickspittles) are extreme right neoliberal ideologues with less in common with people like Macmillan than Corbyn himself. Of course Corbyn is "far left" compared to them. But then, so was Ghengis Khan.

All beside the point. Corbyn is no longer of any consequence.

Why must you insist that capitalism and socialism must exist exclusively of each other? Do you use the NHS? Where we all pay in and all have equal rights to use it? We are a country where socialism and capitalism, where both are governed, co-exist. We have business and a welfare state. That isn't 'having cake and eating it', it's a reasonably fair society, if neither are given free reign. Imbalances and unfairness occur when one or the other proceed unfettered.

But I'm guessing that a capitalist such as yourself wouldn't consider using the NHS, socialist concern that it is. Surely a dyed in the wool capitalist pays for medical care?

[silver fox]

The costs payable to the EU by the UK would have been zero under a No Deal agreement. The costs now amount to around £39 Billion


"Originally, the settlement was estimated to be about £39bn, but a lot of that was paid as the UK's regular contributions to the EU budget.


From January 2021, there was about £25bn left to pay by 2057, according to the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), almost £18bn of which will be paid in the first five years." In the early years, a lot of that will be paying for a share of spending that the EU committed to while the UK was a member, but has not yet funded.
Most of the money paid in later years will be contributions towards funding the pensions of EU staff.


The UK will also continue to make contributions to take part in three EU programmes for 2021-27:

• Horizon Europe research scheme
• Euratom nuclear research programme
• Copernicus, the earth monitoring project

As part of its participation in Euratom, the UK will also continue to be involved with the ITER project to use magnetic fusion to develop a new type of power plant.


It will also be able to access the services of the EU Space Surveillance and Tracking programme, although it will not participate in it.


We do not yet know how much the UK will pay to be involved with these programmes - it will be calculated based on the size of the UK's economy, compared with the size of the whole of the EU economy.





BBC NEWS


That is the legacy of the EU!

No, that is the legacy of Brexit, if we wish to participate in any EU programmes, we had two choices, either as an EU member, which we have discarded, or as a paying customer, perhaps you feel the EU should continue to keep us fully involved and accepting the advantages we want without contributing.

[Hamble]

Yes, in his manifesto he promised a second referendum. He was noticeable by his absence throughout most of the Brexit debacle. On the fence. He followed Benn's teaching, anti-EU. You have something in common.



And you think that the traffickers are going to give up on the UK because of blue passports? In or out of the EU, in or out of Schengen, we are obviously a lucrative market. Illegal immigrants don't sail into Dover. They don't fly into John Lennon. Nor will traffickers.

So, these 'far-left' socialist EU countries? Which are they?

?
The subject was my reasons for voting Brexit.
Schengen system was one reason.

[Hamble]

I've not misunderstood. Corbyn wasn't 'far left'. He was socialist. Nor is the party 'far left'. Anybody that far left would join the SWP or Communist party.

The things Corbyn stands for - a mixed economy, municipal provision of housing, utilities under democratic control - were perfectly acceptable to genuine Conservatives like, for eg, Macmillan. The problem is that the modern Conservatives (and their media lickspittles) are extreme right neoliberal ideologues with less in common with people like Macmillan than Corbyn himself. Of course Corbyn is "far left" compared to them. But then, so was Ghengis Khan.

All beside the point. Corbyn is no longer of any consequence.

Why must you insist that capitalism and socialism must exist exclusively of each other? Do you use the NHS? Where we all pay in and all have equal rights to use it? We are a country where socialism and capitalism, where both are governed, co-exist. We have business and a welfare state. That isn't 'having cake and eating it', it's a reasonably fair society, if neither are given free reign. Imbalances and unfairness occur when one or the other proceed unfettered.

But I'm guessing that a capitalist such as yourself wouldn't consider using the NHS, socialist concern that it is. Surely a dyed in the wool capitalist pays for medical care?

Far left Corbyn
https://www.ft.com/content/4bee9b10-...9-0bcf87a328f2

The nhs is not a Socialist entity.

I have to ask.
Why would a Socialist vote Remain?

Over to you.
Why did you vote Remain?

[said]

No, that is the legacy of Brexit, if we wish to participate in any EU programmes, we had two choices, either as an EU member, which we have discarded, or as a paying customer, perhaps you feel the EU should continue to keep us fully involved and accepting the advantages we want without contributing.

Not really - we knew the Satellite issue was going to be a problem because the UK would be even worse off relying on US ones. The US might be allies, but you would be a fool to trust your allies. - So until we get our own...............

If anything - the EU failed to keep to its agreement and therefore owes US money. Year after year, we had the same record played "We are getting there, soon there will be full employment and the UK will be a wealthy country. Just wait, next year will provide..................." or next year, or the year after, etc.,

The other schemes involve money coming INTO the UK by investments received.

[Toodles McGinty]

Far left Corbyn
https://www.ft.com/content/4bee9b10-...9-0bcf87a328f2

The nhs is not a Socialist entity.

I have to ask.
Why would a Socialist vote Remain?

Over to you.
Why did you vote Remain?

TBH, H, I thought about it long and hard. The one thing I worried about within the EU was the rise of far-right governments and groups - in Hungary, Greece, Italy, Poland etc.

So I started reading, a lot, about why this sudden interest in leaving, who was behind the Leave campaign, who gains, who loses. Not so much the 'front' men - Farage is a joke, obviously. There were the standard odious turds, the UKIP coterie - Carswell (who seems to have found a new career in the US stopping women's right to choose) and Evans, all singularly useless.

Then you've the 'Britannia Unchained' bunch, that worryingly now hold Cabinet positions. Kwarteng, Patel, Raab, Truss. I don't know if you've ever read it. It's a short read, but extremely disturbing. A far-right pamphlet describing how British workers are the laziest, most uneducated idiots in the world. How the removal of worker's rights will make everyone more productive. That Britain would be much better without regulations and safety measures. It's factually inaccurate and sort of fantasy politics, not rooted in reality. Alongside those you've Gove & Cummings. Not great.

Then you've got the real money and influence behind it all. The Elliotts, the people behind Cambridge Analytica, basically the same people behind Trump's campaign. All roads eventually lead to Russia. As Phillip Hammond said, only one country will gain from the EU being weakened. Billionaires and oligarchs that benefit from Britain being alone, without the constraints of the larger influence and laws of Europe.

It all sounds very far fetched initially, but a little digging and it's all there. The Guardian did an excellent series uncovering it all, so it isn't exactly a secret. All they needed was a populist leader to take it over the line: enter Johnson. I don't think he cares less whether we are in or out. He's virtually admitted as much. But it was a short cut to Number 10. He's heavily involved with Russia, basically buried the Russia report, installed a Russian oligarch in the Lords, Carrie is big in the 'Conservative Friends of Russia' group - As are the Elliotts.

Its all very incestuous. And leaves us as a country out on our own. There are the obvious economic reasons to remain - we must be the only country ever to negotiate a trade deal that puts up barriers to trade that weren't there before, and leaves us intentionally worse off. But mostly it's the movement behind it all that is disturbing. A concerted campaign to rile up the public using racism and jingoistic themes to achieve the goal.

Its all beside the point now, but it is interesting how social media was used to influence us. How nudge theory uses algorithms to push individuals into believing lies. How easy it is to demonise entire swathes of populations or even countries, and make us work against our best interests.

It does, however, leave us with the worst Tory government at the worst time in living memory. Assembled for one reason, and one reason only. Brexit. It's incredibly unlucky that the pandemic came along (although inevitable at some point) when it did. I'd say the last Cabinet would have handled it much better. I think even the most vociferous Tory voter would agree on that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not seeing an abundance of talent on the other side of the aisle, either. I'm not seeing Starmer & co as the answer to all our prayers. Such is the state of British politics right now. Floundering. I did say we'd miss May & co at some point.

Anyroad, sorry for the excessively long post, and I understand if you write TL: DR. But you had to ask