Brexit again

[Hamble]

All those colonising Continental Europeans.

How the left craves to have a bigger history to regret.

[silver fox]

Whatever side of the argument you are on can't you just accept it isn't over till the fat lady or Boris sings.

We had the same old posturing last time and endless accusations which ultimately proved vacuous.

Macron is mincing around, Merkel is menacing and just like last time many of the member states are saying nothing.

Sure, but Johnson didn't get a "NEW" deal at all, what he presented was only a recycled May deal, the very deal that he was so vehemently opposed to, that deal had already been accepted by the EU, not exactly a major nor even a very minor achievement, based only on his guarantees regarding the border between NI and the Republic, that doesn't look so watertight right now.

Now we are down to the nitty gritty, nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

You are correct in that some member states are perplexed over the fishing rights saga from both sides, that doesn't mean they will suddenly support the UK, why should they?

[salus.populi]

Those lawless Somalian pirates plundering the high seas seem a great fit with the EU.

Pirates have more in common with the thieves currently running the UK at the moment.

[silver fox]

Anyone see Gove on the Andrew Marr show this morning?

Just doing his usual blame everyone in sight, Andy Burnham totally at fault as to why Greater Manchester didn't immediately cave in to government instruction over Covid, of course omitting to mention that, that stance is supported by politicians across the board.

Then Brexit came up, just as well he didn't have a teddy handy, or teddy would have received instant flight training. As per usual all the problems are down to the nasty EU, who for some reason that I can't quite think of aren't singing from the UK song sheet.

Finally in desperation he comes out with "we will work with a Canada type deal, or an Australia type deal", that got shot down pretty quickly, this reference to AUSTRALIA type deal, WHY? or does our Brexit government believe that everyone is as easily conned as Brexit supporters?

[Toodles McGinty]

Anyone see Gove on the Andrew Marr show this morning?

Just doing his usual blame everyone in sight, Andy Burnham totally at fault as to why Greater Manchester didn't immediately cave in to government instruction over Covid, of course omitting to mention that, that stance is supported by politicians across the board.

Then Brexit came up, just as well he didn't have a teddy handy, or teddy would have received instant flight training. As per usual all the problems are down to the nasty EU, who for some reason that I can't quite think of aren't singing from the UK song sheet.

Finally in desperation he comes out with "we will work with a Canada type deal, or an Australia type deal", that got shot down pretty quickly, this reference to AUSTRALIA type deal, WHY? or does our Brexit government believe that everyone is as easily conned as Brexit supporters?

I saw him. The usual smarmy snorter.

I admire Andy Burnham's stance, along with the other politicians backing him, regardless of party. I'm surprise Steve Rotherham didn't take a similar stand. I know it is inevitable that Gtr Manchester will have to go into 'tier 3', just on the overwhelming number of infections, but Burnham is correct in saying that there should be money to help those whose income is going to be severely reduced.

I loved Marina Hyde's 'Game of Thrones' take on it, one of the best columns I've ever read:

" He has created a sort of Covid Westeros, where local warlords rail and scheme against him, as do some of his own courtiers. Johnson, the body-positive Joffrey, rules by whim and weakness, convinced of a genius middle way that far more brilliant epidemiologists and economists insist simply does not exist. Even northern Tory MPs are saluting the Manchester mayor, Andy Burnham, for whom it hopefully won’t all go a bit Robb Stark. Otherwise, unity hopes are pinned on the Rashford 2036 election ticket."

King of the North. Winter's coming.

As for Brexit, Gove is more the oily 'Littlefinger'. I don't know who he thinks is still listening to his nonsense. There are still a few militant Quitters around, but from my own experience I'm finding more and more Brexiteers asking 'what have we done?' Quick wave to the farmers, there.

The zealots are now very much in the minority. They were played by some incredibly powerful propaganda, especially after the post-crash years and midway through 'austerity'. I understand how they fell for it, I just don't understand why the more intelligent among them didn't see through it. I mean, Farage? UKIP? We'll 'make our own deals better than those we have with the EU'?

Too little, too late now though.

[said]

David Cameron as Flashman.
Photograph: Martin Rowson/Guardian

At the outset, David Cameron believed his IN/OUT Referendum was a shoo-in. He was supremely confident of his salesmanship. What's more, the clamour for Britain leaving the European Union was a crisis for the Conservative party. All he ever had to do was to win the battle in the Conservative parliamentary party and among the few tens of thousands of Conservative party members who, for a variety of reasons were minded to lend their votes to Nigel Farage & Co. His self-assurance was badly misguided. Had Cameron not been so dismissive of the discontent engendered by his and George Osborne's austerity, he would have recognized that people were not voting on BREXIT, they were voting against him & his ilk.

No - Cameron was still in power after the referendum. If you recall - David Cameron, George Osborne, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Nigel Farage are all close friends and had been for many years. Later friends included William Hague, Nick Boles andNick Herbert.

Nigel Farage was a member of the Conservative party in the 1990's, just as the BNP were gaining in popularity in the UK - due to the huge protests against the number of immigrants to the UK, and at the time when there was a call for the UK to break away from the EU by Zac Goldsmith's father James. James started what was known as the Referendum Party. This failed to gain much interest as it was too local in the South. In 1993, Professor Alan Sked started the United Kingdom Independence Party. In 1996, Nigel Farage, a Eurosceptic who had argued strongly against the Maastrict Treaty in Parliament, continued to argue for British Sovereignty. In 1999, Nigel Farage became an MEP for the South East of England, arguing it was better to fight within the EU parliament than outside of it. The BNP were growing in membership. An undercover member of the BNP reported that several company director's and large businessmen were signing up for membership. In 2006, amid the growing poplarity of the BNP, Nigel Farge joined the UKIP party. By the end of 2009, the BNP had in excess of 13,000 members and 54 parliamentary seats. In 2010, BNP under Nick Griffin, lost 26 seats in Parliament and UKIP gained 13 seats in the European Parliament ahead of Labour and Liberals. In 2014, Nigel Farage's Party gained 24 seats, and pressured David Cameron to call for an EU referendum. Cameron set a date for a referendum on whether the UK should remain a member of the European Union, and announced that he would be campaigning for Britain to remain within a "reformed EU".

It was known that George Osborne and Michael Gove were Eurosceptics, Boris Johnson also became a Eurosceptic - so it would not be stretching the imagination too far to suspect that David Cameron, despite his claims to the contrary, may have also been Eurosceptic. Particularly since this had become a popular theme among the Conservatives.

[seivad]

Finally in desperation he comes out with "we will work with a Canada type deal, or an Australia type deal", that got shot down pretty quickly, this reference to AUSTRALIA type deal, WHY? or does our Brexit government believe that everyone is as easily conned as Brexit supporters?

A couple of days ago hubby noticed that when Johnson was expounding the benefits of an Australia type 'deal', he gilded the lily even more by referring to it as being: 'Based on simple principles of global free trade' Free? Fair trade, maybe, but hardly free. It says a lot about Johnson's opinion of Brexit supporter's knowledge.

[Alikado]

No - Cameron was still in power after the referendum. If you recall - David Cameron, George Osborne, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Nigel Farage are all close friends and had been for many years. Later friends included William Hague, Nick Boles andNick Herbert.

Nigel Farage was a member of the Conservative party in the 1990's, just as the BNP were gaining in popularity in the UK - due to the huge protests against the number of immigrants to the UK, and at the time when there was a call for the UK to break away from the EU by Zac Goldsmith's father James. James started what was known as the Referendum Party. This failed to gain much interest as it was too local in the South. In 1993, Professor Alan Sked started the United Kingdom Independence Party. In 1996, Nigel Farage, a Eurosceptic who had argued strongly against the Maastrict Treaty in Parliament, continued to argue for British Sovereignty. In 1999, Nigel Farage became an MEP for the South East of England, arguing it was better to fight within the EU parliament than outside of it. The BNP were growing in membership. An undercover member of the BNP reported that several company director's and large businessmen were signing up for membership. In 2006, amid the growing poplarity of the BNP, Nigel Farge joined the UKIP party. By the end of 2009, the BNP had in excess of 13,000 members and 54 parliamentary seats. In 2010, BNP under Nick Griffin, lost 26 seats in Parliament and UKIP gained 13 seats in the European Parliament ahead of Labour and Liberals. In 2014, Nigel Farage's Party gained 24 seats, and pressured David Cameron to call for an EU referendum. Cameron set a date for a referendum on whether the UK should remain a member of the European Union, and announced that he would be campaigning for Britain to remain within a "reformed EU".

It was known that George Osborne and Michael Gove were Eurosceptics, Boris Johnson also became a Eurosceptic - so it would not be stretching the imagination too far to suspect that David Cameron, despite his claims to the contrary, may have also been Eurosceptic. Particularly since this had become a popular theme among the Conservatives.

Farage has never been an MP and and the BNP have never had 54 seats in Parliament.

[Toodles McGinty]

No - Cameron was still in power after the referendum. If you recall - David Cameron, George Osborne, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Nigel Farage are all close friends and had been for many years. Later friends included William Hague, Nick Boles andNick Herbert...

...It was known that George Osborne and Michael Gove were Eurosceptics, Boris Johnson also became a Eurosceptic - so it would not be stretching the imagination too far to suspect that David Cameron, despite his claims to the contrary, may have also been Eurosceptic. Particularly since this had become a popular theme among the Conservatives.

It would be stretching the imagination to breaking point. On account of we know how all those MPs voted. All those you mention, apart from Gove and Johnson, voted to remain. 24 Cabinet members did, including Osborne and Cameron. Only a handful of the Cabinet voted Leave.

It wasn't a popular theme among any MPs, Tory or otherwise. The vast majority voted to remain in the EU. 444 MPs voted to stay, 158 voted to leave. To suggest anything else is a complete flight of fancy.

There's nothing to suggest that Farage is friends with those other MPs. He's nothing but a rabble rousing little weasel that clings to the coat tails of the likes of Trump or Murdoch. No serious politician would taint their reputation with association with him, even Gove and his ilk.

Nothing like facts to get in the way of your fantasy politics.

[salus.populi]

By the end of 2009, the BNP had in excess of 13,000 members and 54 parliamentary seats. In 2010, BNP under Nick Griffin, lost 26 seats in Parliament

So that means they still have 28 MPs?
Can you name any of them? Or their constituencies? It's just that as far as I can see the BNP have never had a single MP in parliament.

[silver fox]

So that means they still have 28 MPs?
Can you name any of them? Or their constituencies? It's just that as far as I can see the BNP have never had a single MP in parliament.

You’re correct BNP have never had even one MP, even bloody UKIP have only had two MPs and one of them was a defection, the one UKIP MP to actually win a contested election then promptly dumped UKIP and became Independent.

Currently neither BNP nor UKIP have any elected MPs.

Of course the way that said calculates figures and then makes a final analysis, it’s more than possible for him/her to declare The Screaming Lord Sutch party as the main opposition.

[seivad]

Anyone see Gove on the Andrew Marr show this morning?

Just doing his usual blame everyone in sight, Andy Burnham totally at fault as to why Greater Manchester didn't immediately cave in to government instruction over Covid, of course omitting to mention that, that stance is supported by politicians across the board.

Then Brexit came up, just as well he didn't have a teddy handy, or teddy would have received instant flight training. As per usual all the problems are down to the nasty EU, who for some reason that I can't quite think of aren't singing from the UK song sheet.

Finally in desperation he comes out with "we will work with a Canada type deal, or an Australia type deal", that got shot down pretty quickly, this reference to AUSTRALIA type deal, WHY? or does our Brexit government believe that everyone is as easily conned as Brexit supporters?

I think I'm correct in saying that the only trade deals the UK has so far, are the ones that have been successfully rolled over from existing EU trade deals, possibly with a few tweaks such as in the UK-Japan deal.

Gove had better stock up on teddies. If he thinks that the EU is an unreasonable bully boy, he ain't seen nothing yet. That bright sparkly dangling carrot known as the future US/UK trade deal, you know, the one that's supposed to compensate for the loss of seamless trade with the EU, and often touted as being more beneficial to the UK. That one is going to be a doozy.

Parties aren't usually equals in trade negotiations. That's certainly the case with a trading bloc of 27 countries in the EU. It's also the case with the US. Johnson and Gove may call it unreasonable bullying, but the larger economy/market holds all the cards. They expect the lesser party will concede on many of their demands as a price to be paid for free access to their huge market. The US has hundreds of experienced negotiators, headed by a man (Bob Lighthizer) whose experience and knowledge is second to none. If Trump is returned to office, teddies will be thrown. If Biden is elected, it could be worse. Democrats are far less pro free trade than Republicans. The sparkly carrot is a delusion.

[bensherman]

I think I'm correct in saying that the only trade deals the UK has so far, are the ones that have been successfully rolled over from existing EU trade deals, possibly with a few tweaks such as in the UK-Japan deal.

Gove had better stock up on teddies. If he thinks that the EU is an unreasonable bully boy, he ain't seen nothing yet. That bright sparkly dangling carrot known as the future US/UK trade deal, you know, the one that's supposed to compensate for the loss of seamless trade with the EU, and often touted as being more beneficial to the UK. That one is going to be a doozy.

Parties aren't usually equals in trade negotiations. That's certainly the case with a trading bloc of 27 countries in the EU. It's also the case with the US. Johnson and Gove may call it unreasonable bullying, but the larger economy/market holds all the cards. They expect the lesser party will concede on many of their demands as a price to be paid for free access to their huge market. The US has hundreds of experienced negotiators, headed by a man (Bob Lighthizer) whose experience and knowledge is second to none. If Trump is returned to office, teddies will be thrown. If Biden is elected, it could be worse. Democrats are far less pro free trade than Republicans. The sparkly carrot is a delusion.

Agree with all of that and there remains the fundamental issue of regulation, in that if our farmers, manufacturers adopt US standards they will not satisfy EU standards. That has been sitting there as a fundamental problem for the whole time

[Toodles McGinty]

Saw Gove this afternoon, spouting the same old 'Australia' shite in the Commons.

'Prepare for blah blah blah' again. Though he seemed to be backtracking pretty swiftly on the whole 'rainbows and unicorns' scenario, stating leaving on WTO terms would cause some 'turbulence'. Yes, we've seen the lorry parks. Kent becoming less the garden of England, more the portaloo of England.

There are also 'challenges' ahead. Who for? Not for Snorty Gove. Perhaps for diabetics and cancer patients?

And the EU hadn't been 'taking things seriously'. Yes, I can see Michel Barnier sat there flicking rubber bands and sharing cat videos at the negotiation table.

So not only does he think the great unwashed are a bunch of idiots, he thinks MPs are too. Though Treeza May didn't seem very impressed. Bit late now, Treez.

[The PNP]

Agree with all of that and there remains the fundamental issue of regulation, in that if our farmers, manufacturers adopt US standards they will not satisfy EU standards. That has been sitting there as a fundamental problem for the whole time

True.....Brexit represents a no-win outcome for British farmers.

Either they lower standards in order to compete on price with US products, which renders our produce unacceptable to EU customers....Or they maintain standards to continue selling to the EU, but lose the domestic market due to undercutting from 20% cheaper US imports.

As a consumer, I sincerely hope we continue to produce and import food to EU standards - while telling the US to go sell their hormone-laced, chlorinated, faeces-laden garbage to some other poor sucker - yuk!