Capitol Chaos

[local]

The only farce was Trump's lawyer David Schoen claiming that House Managers had manipulated/faked evidence, and showing the alleged fake evidence. There was a slight problem however. The evidence he displayed had not been presented by House Managers during the impeachment trial.

Schoen acknowledged that the Managers hadn't presented the evidence due to the fact that they had spotted an error beforehand. So what was the point of him mentioning it? If it was an attempt to discredit the evidence based on readers/viewers only hearing/seeing part of his testimony, it seems to have worked on you. You have now officially joined the SFNACT Club.

BTW, if you hear that Democrats withheld video evidence from the defence team, that's also a (confirmed) lie.

Be honest now, didn't you think that Trump's legal team were pretty shoddy? I thought they were appalling. His legal team for the first impeachment was first class. Unfortunately for Trump, lawyers of that calibre no longer want to represent him.

Far from it they exposed the hypocrisy and detailed the settled law and it's precedents.

The House Managers let their distaste for Trump cloud their judgement.

Watching Democrats including kamala and Nancy supporting rioters was toe curling hypocrisy laid bare.

Trump divisive nature laid him exposed to those in the Republican Party who understandably don't like him to exact revenge and some clearly did.

A more measured and intelligent analysis of the riot and it's build up should have been undertaken.

The Democrats blew it and their hypocrisy and dishonesty simply gave Trump crazies the proof they needed.

Fight like hell from the mouths of Democrat after Democrat .
Supporting rioters and in Kamalas case supporting their release was horrendous.
The President advocating his violent retribution against people was a nasty side of him laid bare to the world.

This dirty political game backfired and the man who should have faded into history has been empowered.

[bensherman]

Far from it they exposed the hypocrisy and detailed the settled law and it's precedents.

The House Managers let their distaste for Trump cloud their judgement.

Watching Democrats including kamala and Nancy supporting rioters was toe curling hypocrisy laid bare.

Trump divisive nature laid him exposed to those in the Republican Party who understandably don't like him to exact revenge and some clearly did.

A more measured and intelligent analysis of the riot and it's build up should have been undertaken.

The Democrats blew it and their hypocrisy and dishonesty simply gave Trump crazies the proof they needed.

Fight like hell from the mouths of Democrat after Democrat .
Supporting rioters and in Kamalas case supporting their release was horrendous.
The President advocating his violent retribution against people was a nasty side of him laid bare to the world.

This dirty political game backfired and the man who should have faded into history has been empowered.

We all know, except perhaps you, that the outcome was driven entirely by Republican politicians terrified of the treatment they and their families would get from extremists at home. Not on the merits of the case.
They look now at how to recover the wreckage of their party.
There are probably ten million who would follow Trump . And 60+ million who were Republicans. And his behaviour has driven many of those away. Have a look at the rate of people withdrawing their GOP registrations. While they may not go to the Democrats they aren't voting again for Trump or any of his cretinous family.
They desperately need a new leader and it isn't Mitch McConnell, Cruz or Rubio.

[sandGroundZero]

…They [i.e. the US Republican party] desperately need a new leader and it isn't Mitch McConnell, Cruz or Rubio.

— bensherman's post #377

The next demagogue will have observed Trump's obvious deficiencies. The fear should be that a genial, telegenic, charismatic yet remorseless individual will exploit the same socio-political schisms that Donald Trump did; but with a comparatively benign personna.

Republicans and Democratic converts to Trump's divisive spiel had many, various reasons for both objecting to and yet voting for him. In 2020 the anti-Trump alliance managed to muster an unprecedented electoral turnout. So much so, that it exceeded Trump's improved numbers vis-à-vis his 2016 vote count. The forum's inveterate Trump apologist's point that Trump defeated himself is not without some validity.

Still, the USA has in-built Constitutional features which have seen recurring crises in its history. We should never suppose that the US (or for that matter, GB) are immune from autocratic rule.

There are probably ten million who would follow Trump . And 60+ million who were Republicans. And his behaviour has driven many of those away.

I wonder whether the ten million 'hard-core ' Trumpists versus sixty million more-or-less redeemable Republicans is a reflection of the reality?

[seivad]

Far from it they exposed the hypocrisy and detailed the settled law and it's precedents.

The House Managers let their distaste for Trump cloud their judgement.

Watching Democrats including kamala and Nancy supporting rioters was toe curling hypocrisy laid bare.

Trump divisive nature laid him exposed to those in the Republican Party who understandably don't like him to exact revenge and some clearly did.

A more measured and intelligent analysis of the riot and it's build up should have been undertaken.

The Democrats blew it and their hypocrisy and dishonesty simply gave Trump crazies the proof they needed.

Fight like hell from the mouths of Democrat after Democrat .
Supporting rioters and in Kamalas case supporting their release was horrendous.
The President advocating his violent retribution against people was a nasty side of him laid bare to the world.

This dirty political game backfired and the man who should have faded into history has been empowered.

Forgive me for placing reliance on the judgement of 170 constitutional lawyers who stated that a former President can be impeached. Add to that the 144 constitutional lawyers/First Amendment scholars who stated that First Amendment protection doesn't apply in an impeachment trial, nor was it ever intended to protect behaviour like Trump's. I'll take their interpretation over a personal injury lawyer, and a Brit living on the NW coast of England.

Do you honestly believe that the framers intended to protect a rogue President's illegal attempts to overthrow a free and fair election? Prevention of an imperial President was of prime importance to the framers. The Constitution was meant to enable removal of Presidents like Trump, not protect them. He was their worst nightmare.

As for the whataboutery video clips, pulease! Trump's defence was false equivalence. There's a world of difference in urging people to fight for their rights and stop police killing African Americans, and urging people to stop the (fictional) steal and take back their country.

Schoen knows it too. Last week he was on Fox News and stated that Democrats 'were using rhetoric that’s just as inflammatory, or more so'

When asked why Democrats’ calls to “fight” did not result in violence like that seen at the Capitol, Schoen replied 'The problem is, they don't really have followers, you know, their dedicated followers ... when they give their speeches'. In other words, Schoen admitted that Trump has a large base of followers who do get inflamed by Trump's calls to fight.

Strangely enough I do agree with you that impeachment was not a great idea. I knew that a 2/3 majority vote was never going to happen. I also knew that Republicans voting to acquit Trump would confirm to him that he still owns the Republican Party. A President who should be sliding into oblivion is still empowered and able to influence the US government. He will continue to take the oxygen out of the room, and that's not a good thing.

[silver fox]

Far from it they exposed the hypocrisy and detailed the settled law and it's precedents.

The House Managers let their distaste for Trump cloud their judgement.

Watching Democrats including kamala and Nancy supporting rioters was toe curling hypocrisy laid bare.

Trump divisive nature laid him exposed to those in the Republican Party who understandably don't like him to exact revenge and some clearly did.

A more measured and intelligent analysis of the riot and it's build up should have been undertaken.

The Democrats blew it and their hypocrisy and dishonesty simply gave Trump crazies the proof they needed.

Fight like hell from the mouths of Democrat after Democrat .
Supporting rioters and in Kamalas case supporting their release was horrendous.
The President advocating his violent retribution against people was a nasty side of him laid bare to the world.

This dirty political game backfired and the man who should have faded into history has been empowered.

At no time did Kamala Harris or Nancy Pelosi support rioters, clearly you watched the amateurish edited vids and believed, the dirty political game was Trump’s game right through.

The problem now is, does this empower Trumpists, Q Anon crazies and the assorted militant groups? Or will hopefully the normal citizens see the dangers.

However this isn’t over, Trump will quite likely have more than enough civil and possibly criminal court cases to keep him busy, of course among the brain washed even this will be some great conspiracy.

In a normal court Trump’s lawyers would now be disbarred and facing prosecution of their own due to the outright lies they used, don’t forget they were lies, which have already been checked and verified as lies.

Of course we knew that it was unlikely that the GOP would vote on conscience, morality or legality, being more afraid of reaction from the extremists, both within and outside the party.

However just like Brexit, populism rules over common sense and intelligence.

[Little Londoner]

What a farce just before he left office the clown sanctioned several executions yet he and his backside licking minions just show the world what money can do for you in the self styled leading Country of the Free World. I thought Russia, China and North Korea were the most outlandish Politically bereft countries in the world but good ol' Uncle Sam is in the same league.

If I was Trump I'd go out rob a bank and murder someone whilst his luck is in.

[Alikado]

What a farce just before he left office the clown sanctioned several executions yet he and his backside licking minions just show the world what money can do for you in the self styled leading Country of the Free World. I thought Russia, China and North Korea were the most outlandish Politically bereft countries in the world but good ol' Uncle Sam is in the same league.

If I was Trump I'd go out rob a bank and murder someone whilst his luck is in.

He / his businesses do rob Banks and his actions management make him one of the biggest mass murderers.

[local]

At no time did Kamala Harris or Nancy Pelosi support rioters, clearly you watched the amateurish edited vids and believed, the dirty political game was Trump’s game right through.

The problem now is, does this empower Trumpists, Q Anon crazies and the assorted militant groups? Or will hopefully the normal citizens see the dangers.

However this isn’t over, Trump will quite likely have more than enough civil and possibly criminal court cases to keep him busy, of course among the brain washed even this will be some great conspiracy.

In a normal court Trump’s lawyers would now be disbarred and facing prosecution of their own due to the outright lies they used, don’t forget they were lies, which have already been checked and verified as lies.

Of course we knew that it was unlikely that the GOP would vote on conscience, morality or legality, being more afraid of reaction from the extremists, both within and outside the party.

However just like Brexit, populism rules over common sense and intelligence.

Yes they did it's on Kamalas Facebook account look for yourself in case you believe the lies that it was an "amateurish edit" by me or anyone else.

Trumps lawyers are still subject to the ABA rules,
these are rules prohibiting lawyers from making false statements to third parties and engaging in deceitful conduct.

You are being taken in by the pro democrat media.

*American Bar Association.

[silver fox]

Yes they did it's on Kamalas Facebook account look for yourself in case you believe the lies that it was an "amateurish edit" by me or anyone else.

Trumps lawyers are still subject to the ABA rules,
these are rules prohibiting lawyers from making false statements to third parties and engaging in deceitful conduct.

You are being taken in by the pro democrat media.

*American Bar Association.

As I never look at facebook for anything, I'll give that one a miss.

The lawyers lies were spoken clearly in the Senate, particularly during the final summing up, however in this case when conspirators form a good part of the "jury", it didn't matter what they said, we all know that the Trumpist party wouldn't convict their main man.

Pro Democrat media?????? have you looked at US media recently, sure there are plenty who have no regard for Trump and/or detest the man, but remember you've also got the bastions of truth like Fox, News max etc etc

[Toodles McGinty]

As I never look at facebook for anything, I'll give that one a miss.

The lawyers lies were spoken clearly in the Senate, particularly during the final summing up, however in this case when conspirators form a good part of the "jury", it didn't matter what they said, we all know that the Trumpist party wouldn't convict their main man.

Pro Democrat media?????? have you looked at US media recently, sure there are plenty who have no regard for Trump and/or detest the man, but remember you've also got the bastions of truth like Fox, News max etc etc

I had a look. She (her minions) don't seem to have posted anything after the inauguration.

[local]

As I never look at facebook for anything, I'll give that one a miss.

The lawyers lies were spoken clearly in the Senate, particularly during the final summing up, however in this case when conspirators form a good part of the "jury", it didn't matter what they said, we all know that the Trumpist party wouldn't convict their main man.

Pro Democrat media?????? have you looked at US media recently, sure there are plenty who have no regard for Trump and/or detest the man, but remember you've also got the bastions of truth like Fox, News max etc etc

As I pointed out Trumps Lawyers can and would be disbarred for lying.

Or do you think no one was listening who didn't like them or Trump.

The political trial was the fault of Nancy Pelosi.

As I have said a while back she dragged the gullible, blinded by their understandable dislike of Trump with her.

He was innocent of the charge.

It was fabricated nonsense.

He is still a smarmy detestable man but that doesn't yet warrant a charge.

Now he has just had millions recruited for him and the focus will be on him instead of the real villains in the world.

[silver fox]

As I pointed out Trumps Lawyers can and would be disbarred for lying.

Or do you think no one was listening who didn't like them or Trump.

The political trial was the fault of Nancy Pelosi.

As I have said a while back she dragged the gullible, blinded by their understandable dislike of Trump with her.

He was innocent of the charge.

It was fabricated nonsense.

He is still a smarmy detestable man but that doesn't yet warrant a charge.

Now he has just had millions recruited for him and the focus will be on him instead of the real villains in the world.

He was about as innocent as Hitler or Stalin, just don't get quite as far, there was no fabricated nonsense in the charges, or perhaps you have joined the club who believe the attack on the Capitol either didn't happen or was actually Democrats in disguise.

[local]

He was about as innocent as Hitler or Stalin, just don't get quite as far, there was no fabricated nonsense in the charges, or perhaps you have joined the club who believe the attack on the Capitol either didn't happen or was actually Democrats in disguise.

Nope saw it with my own eyes.
He was innocent of the charge even his enemies in the Republican Party said so.

Does he attract crackpots yes.
Has he now got more crackpots following this political trial, unfortunately yes.

Kamala Harris has previously bailed out rioters but I don't think that justifies an incitement charge.

She told her supporters to fight, so did Biden, he suggested taking people behind a gym to beat them was acceptable.

All bad but not reaching the bar.

Trump has gained millions of American voters who saw Congress at its worst.

[joan ofarc]

Nope saw it with my own eyes.
He was innocent of the charge even his enemies in the Republican Party said so.

Does he attract crackpots yes.
Has he now got more crackpots following this political trial, unfortunately yes.

Kamala Harris has previously bailed out rioters but I don't think that justifies an incitement charge.

She told her supporters to fight, so did Biden, he suggested taking people behind a gym to beat them was acceptable.

All bad but not reaching the bar.

Trump has gained millions of American voters who saw Congress at its worst.

• context is everything....you could put an hour long video together of people saying the word 'rape'. It wouldn't mean they were inciting rape unless an actual rape occured as a result of one of the comments.
  

how many riots were there after all the examples the defence cobbled together of Democrats saying 'Fight'? None. His use of the word 'fight' also included specific instructions as to time and place.

There is a false equivalence, asserted by his followers and apologists, between talking about fighting for racial injustice etc and fighting to overturn a democratic election.

Contrary to your statement even his Republican enemies have actually said he was responsible. How they can believe this and still vote to acquit beats me but that is what they did.

American voters did indeed see Congress at its worst but I doubt Trump gained many voters. In fact the evidence is that the Republican party is hemorraging members. Not that the Democrats are mopping them up mind you. Many are registering as independents. I'll be interested to see if a third party emerges, either a RealRepublican party or a party of Trump. Third parties don't generally fare well but times are achanging.

Whatever happens I feel sorry for the immediate future of America. The only hope would be if Trump is jailed for some of the many cases pending against him... accountability probably for the first time in his life.

[bensherman]

• context is everything....you could put an hour long video together of people saying the word 'rape'. It wouldn't mean they were inciting rape unless an actual rape occured as a result of one of the comments.
  

how many riots were there after all the examples the defence cobbled together of Democrats saying 'Fight'? None. His use of the word 'fight' also included specific instructions as to time and place.

Indeed. As are the WAY things are said. And the audience to which it is said. In this case there can have been no doubt they had travelled from right across the US, were hyper and some had weapons. Is Trump so clueless that he didn't register all that and the likelihood of them becoming violent? When they reached the Capitol, and he was safely back in the White House, it was receiving total TV coverage. He could have called them off, if he decided this wasn't what he had intended. But he let ot run for FIVE HOURS.

There is a false equivalence, asserted by his followers and apologists, between talking about fighting for racial injustice etc and fighting to overturn a democratic election.

Contrary to your statement even his Republican enemies have actually said he was responsible. How they can believe this and still vote to acquit beats me but that is what they did.
I have seen people saying "he was exonerated". What nonsense. They are simply too scared of him and his acolytes back home , to do the right thing. It was a shameful day for America.

American voters did indeed see Congress at its worst but I doubt Trump gained many voters. In fact the evidence is that the Republican party is hemorraging members. Not that the Democrats are mopping them up mind you.


Many are registering as independents. I'll be interested to see if a third party emerges, either a RealRepublican party or a party of Trump. Third parties don't generally fare well but times are achanging.

What may force the issue is the number of corporate donors who are stopping donations to the GOP in disgust

Whatever happens I feel sorry for the immediate future of America. The only hope would be if Trump is jailed for some of the many cases pending against him... accountability probably for the first time in his life.

All this flows from Trump's dysfunctional mental state. He is so ego-driven, and spent so much time ridiculing Biden, that he cannot process the fact that people did not want him. So the claim of fraud resolves his anxiety. Then he looks for evidence and finds none. But millions still go with him