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I sit with other simpletons such as Jeffrey Scott Shapiro the ex Washington state prosecutor who also doesn't think the Trump charge is valid.
I have also read the transcript of Trumps speech (tedious and rambling) and unless the orange one can be proved to have some hypnotic powers I struggle to find evidence of incitement.
Still my offer is open, show me where, no one has done it yet.
I did ponder that maybe you have to play it backwards or imbibe some substance or other to get the full effect.
He writes;
The president didn’t commit incitement or any other crime. I should know. As a Washington prosecutor I earned the nickname “protester prosecutor” from the antiwar group CodePink. In one trial, I convicted 31 protesters who disrupted congressional traffic by obstructing the Capitol Crypt. In another, I convicted a CodePink activist who smeared her hands with fake blood, charged at then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in a House hearing room, and incited the audience to seize the secretary of state physically. In other cases, I dropped charges when the facts fell short of the legal standard for incitement. One such defendant was the antiwar activist Cindy Sheehan.
Hostile journalists and lawmakers have suggested Mr. Trump incited the riot when he told a rally that Republicans need to “fight much harder.” Mr. Trump suggested the crowd walk to the Capitol: “We’re going to cheer on brave senators and congressmen and -women, and we’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them. Because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong.”
In the District of Columbia, it’s a crime to “intentionally or recklessly act in such a manner to cause another person to be in reasonable fear” and to “incite or provoke violence where there is a likelihood that such violence will ensue.” This language is based on Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969), in which the Supreme Court set the standard for speech that could be prosecuted without violating the First Amendment. The justices held that a Ku Klux Klan leader’s calls for violence against blacks and Jews were protected speech. The court found that Clarence Brandenburg’s comments were “mere advocacy” of violence, not “directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action . . . likely to incite or produce such action.”
The president didn’t mention violence on Wednesday, much less provoke or incite it. He said, “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”
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They are trying impeachment already. If a majority of the House and two-thirds of the Senate conclude that the president has betrayed his oath of office, that’s enough.
There is quite a range of federal and civil charges against old Mushroom Member:
Quite a few here.
His sexual misconduct allegations.
Both Warren and Pelosi seemed determined to send him down.
Should be a fun few months.
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So that's another No on my show me the incitement in his speech offer?
Trumps hold on people is fascinating and I am sure will pack some future books.
To those of us who simply don't think he is worth the effort of either loving him or loathing him he is something of an enigma.
He has left Office and despite the ludicrous predictions before his tenure and the mad Pelosi's ramblings he didn't start a war or bomb Iraq.
The "Trumped" up charges against him are laughable.
Charge him with failing to address poverty, gun crime, health care etc and I would chip in to the prosecution costs.
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Remember 'LLAP-Goch'¹
…His part in the attack on the Capitol is obvious to anybody but the most ardent Cheeto lover, MAGAt or Q-Anon simpleton. … — post #210
As you will have read by now local (& evidently J S Shapiro ??) construct Trump's defence on the premise that it was Trump's address to the January 6th rally, …ignoring his cultivation of extremists' opinion and his explicit encouragement to rally in DC, plus a long list of other details.
_______________________________________________________________
The GOP might be waiting to see how the wind blows, but to a man they'll turn on him like a rabid dog before long. — post #210
I anticipate you're in for a surprise on that count. I believe a Senate conviction is less than even money. In a longer perspective, Donald Trump will have a disruptive impact within GOP circles, but like our Conservative party, the instinct to win at any cost is strong.
1. LLAP-Goch
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Originally Posted by sandGroundZero
As you will have read by now local (& evidently J S Shapiro ??) construct Trump's defence on the premise that it was Trump's address to the January 6th rally, …ignoring his cultivation of extremists' opinion and his explicit encouragement to rally in DC, plus a long list of other details.
_______________________________________________________________
I anticipate you're in for a surprise on that count. I believe a Senate conviction is less than even money. In a longer perspective, Donald Trump will have a disruptive impact within GOP circles, but like our Conservative party, the instinct to win at any cost is strong.
1. LLAP-Goch
I have a black belt in LLAP-Goch. Well, it was a green belt, made of leeks. But they went on the turn after a few days...
It is exactly that self-preservation instinct in the GOP that leads me to believe they'll drop him like a hot brick. Even Pence came to his senses in the last days of the empire, hence the mob baying for his blood.
They'll all switch in the blink of an eye. Hasn't McConnell already made the right noises? Just as they all fell neatly into line, and changed from 'he's an idiot' to 'he's our leader' once they realised he could actually be elected, they'll back away like he's a ticking bomb now he's persona non grata.
They might not pin the incitement charge on him, but he and his family will face the courts eventually. Even if it's tax reasons.
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Originally Posted by local
So that's another No on my show me the incitement in his speech offer?
Trumps hold on people is fascinating and I am sure will pack some future books.
To those of us who simply don't think he is worth the effort of either loving him or loathing him he is something of an enigma.
He has left Office and despite the ludicrous predictions before his tenure and the mad Pelosi's ramblings he didn't start a war or bomb Iraq.
The "Trumped" up charges against him are laughable.
Charge him with failing to address poverty, gun crime, health care etc and I would chip in to the prosecution costs.
Give it up, Trump’s speech was just the trigger, over a long period he has cultivated his followers, of course since the election has built the great illusion that he had been wronged, that he was the victim, the brain washed turned up on the 6th at his instigation, he had convinced the mob that they could still overthrow the result of that election, what he told them at that rally, was to go and do it.
No-one with any degree of thought, even thinks that the mob just turned up and that one speech set it all off, that was Trump’s final throw of the dice, every dodgy, pointless trick in the book had been tried and failed, what he actually hoped to achieve is very much in his head, personally have no wish to go there.
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Originally Posted by sandGroundZero
As you will have read by now local (& evidently J S Shapiro ??) construct Trump's defence on the premise that it was Trump's address to the January 6th rally, …ignoring his cultivation of extremists' opinion and his explicit encouragement to rally in DC, plus a long list of other details.
_______________________________________________________________
I anticipate you're in for a surprise on that count. I believe a Senate conviction is less than even money. In a longer perspective, Donald Trump will have a disruptive impact within GOP circles, but like our Conservative party, the instinct to win at any cost is strong.
1. LLAP-Goch
Jeffrey Scott Shapiro the ex Washington state prosecutor.
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Yep, you can't beat this tub-thumping, blood raising call to arms;
Trump,
I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”
Straight out of the Godwins Law Cookbook.
After that, I feel like ripping a tissue or plucking a dandelion I'm that inflamed
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Responding to Toodles McGinty's post #215
…It is exactly that self-preservation instinct in the GOP that leads me to believe they'll drop him like a hot brick. Even Pence came to his senses in the last days of the empire, hence the mob baying for his blood.
They'll all switch in the blink of an eye. … — post #215
" The acrimonious split within Republican ranks widened over the weekend as Donald Trump made his foray back into politics, backing the re-election of a hard-line supporter as chair of the party in Arizona.
His wholehearted support for Kelli Ward was seen by allies as the former president firing a warning shot across the bows of any Republican senators considering backing his impeachment."
Our forum colleague's intimation that Trump did little harm and in any case 'he's off to the golf course, end of story ' is palpably false. Trump has done immense damage and appears determined to continue doing so.
The questions:
• Will the GOP coalesce around the Trump rump? or
• Will it rebuff Trumpism?
• Will the Republican party's prospects at local, state and national levels be damaged? And best of all:
• Will 'progressives ' capitalize on Republicans' current disarray?
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Originally Posted by local
So that's another No on my show me the incitement in his speech offer?
Trumps hold on people is fascinating and I am sure will pack some future books.
To those of us who simply don't think he is worth the effort of either loving him or loathing him he is something of an enigma.
He has left Office and despite the ludicrous predictions before his tenure and the mad Pelosi's ramblings he didn't start a war or bomb Iraq.
The "Trumped" up charges against him are laughable.
Charge him with failing to address poverty, gun crime, health care etc and I would chip in to the prosecution costs.
You can't really be that naive.
Trump's incitement to an act like this goes back months.
Saying the only way he could lose is if there's fraud.
Stand back and stand by
Stop the steal
61 court cases
Threats to state officials because they would not disenfranchise thousands of voters
Numerous tweets to his followers raising their belief they had been cheated
Invitations to Washington to be "wild"
So they turn up, in paramilitary outfits and carrying weapons and he excites them again.
If he thought it would be peaceful, he is to judgement what King Herod was to babysitting.
And then, when it was clear it was NOT peaceful, and that some even wanted to kill his vice president, he waits FIVE HOURS to tell them to go home- and obviously didn't mean it.
It is not just about the speech on that day, and YOU KNOW IT
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Interesting programme on BBC2 last night. 'The Trump Show: Downfall'.
Ex-staffers and associates saying what a petulant child he is. And clips of Trump & his family and various minions using language that can only be described as incitement to violence before the attack on the Capitol.
Regardless of whether or not it's an incitement to violence, it shows this goon should never nor should he ever again be in public office.
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Originally Posted by bensherman
You can't really be that naive.
Trump's incitement to an act like this goes back months.
Saying the only way he could lose is if there's fraud.
Stand back and stand by
Stop the steal
61 court cases
Threats to state officials because they would not disenfranchise thousands of voters
Numerous tweets to his followers raising their belief they had been cheated
Invitations to Washington to be "wild"
So they turn up, in paramilitary outfits and carrying weapons and he excites them again.
If he thought it would be peaceful, he is to judgement what King Herod was to babysitting.
And then, when it was clear it was NOT peaceful, and that some even wanted to kill his vice president, he waits FIVE HOURS to tell them to go home- and obviously didn't mean it.
It is not just about the speech on that day, and YOU KNOW IT
So you're realising it wasn't the speech as I keep saying and you're looking to go back to perhaps the start of Trumps Presidency to build your point?
You're now trying to build a new charge of perhaps cumulative incitement?
Trump has been stoking the masses to a frenzy over the years?
That's one hell of a clever operator if it was true, but he isn't that clever is he?
On the day your allegedly incited masses febrile with years of frustration and rage stormed Congress and...........................
took selfies.
Surely with years of goading and fed lie after lie as you suggest by a master svengali, they would have ransacked the place burnt it down, and took the offending democrats to some makeshift gallows ?
Isn't the reality that the few rent a mob hot heads broke in with little resistance and the masses followed.?
Or did Trump bring them to a gentle simmer.
Have you seen who actually died the how and why ?
One woman was shot dead by Police, just imagine if she had been Black.
The others medical emergencies, the results of autopsies to be confirmed'.
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Originally Posted by local
So you're realising it wasn't the speech as I keep saying and you're looking to go back to perhaps the start of Trumps Presidency to build your point?
You're now trying to build a new charge of perhaps cumulative incitement?
Trump has been stoking the masses to a frenzy over the years?
That's one hell of a clever operator if it was true, but he isn't that clever is he?
On the day your allegedly incited masses febrile with years of frustration and rage stormed Congress and...........................
took selfies.
Surely with years of goading and fed lie after lie as you suggest by a master svengali, they would have ransacked the place burnt it down, and took the offending democrats to some makeshift gallows ?
Isn't the reality that the few rent a mob hot heads broke in with little resistance and the masses followed.?
Or did Trump bring them to a gentle simmer.
Have you seen who actually died the how and why ?
One woman was shot dead by Police, just imagine if she had been Black.
The others medical emergencies, the results of autopsies to be confirmed'.
That speech was the trigger to his build up, the final push to his more demented followers to do their thing, we know there were a good number wandering round in a bemused trance, but there were also plenty actively hunting people, breaking down doors, invading offices, actively searching for any relevant paper work, your portrayal of peaceful citizens who had somehow managed to wander into the Capitol almost by chance is ludicrous.
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In response to bensherman's
post #220
Feigning obtuseness is local's rhetorical forte
It has kept this thread alive!
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When I sit on the same fence as Washingtons ex prosecutor I don't feel I have the position too wrong.
With the massed ranks of Southport Q Locals relentlessly wrong posters opposing my position, I don't feel to uncomfortable
I look back at their crazy predictions and can't help but
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