Capitol Chaos

[bensherman]

You are of course joking, if any one tried to highlight Trump’s assorted incitements, it would take pages on here, in truth since the election that’s all that he’s done, appealing to anyone and everyone who was prepared to break the law on his behalf.

Not just Trump as such, what was at risk was the entire principle of a free democratic vote, dictators are not wanted anywhere.

Months before the election he told his followers that if he lost that would have to be because of fraud. Weeks before Trump supporters repeated that line when questioned.
At the debate, when asked if he would disown violent groups, he would not, and told the Proud Boys to "stand by".
Then he has made a string of comments about how people would be "angry" if this "landslide" result was "taken from them".
Then on the day of the attack he told people to march and "be strong" to an audience quite obviously ready for violence.
There are two possible interpretations.
One- that he deliberately incited violence
Two- that he had no idea it would happen.
If it is the second, he has no right to hold office as his understanding of people and their motivations is nil.
But we all know, and so does he, that it was the first.

[local]

Examples of Trump's incitement are all over videos and reports of every damned rally he's given since he was robbed of his landslide win in the election. The last one he gave was on the same day as the Capitol affair priming his warriors to be strong in order to take back their country. I CBA searching for the scripts for any of them. It's a waste of time.

Strange that you're so faithful to him, when the majority of American people are reviled by his incitement, as are many Republican Senators, Representatives, Cabinet members, advisors and aides. Who do you think knows better? Them or you?

The absence of complete quotes speaks volumes, don't you feel a bit daft being taken in so easily.

Surely the easiest thing to do is put a few up.
Isn't the reality that when you look back without the orange mist you are struggling ?

[sandGroundZero]

…did not explicitly say "storm the Capitol, take legislators hostage and overturn the Presidential election result ".

On the other hand

• Since before his 2016 election, Trump has encouraged or endorsed violent behaviour in rallies of avid supporters.
• For months, the President has primed his Twitter followers to believe the Presidential election was being "rigged " through the use of postal ballots.
• Only under duress has the President vaguely criticized white supremacist groups' violence while asserting "Antifa " elements of BLM protests actively engaged in property damage, looting and violence.
• The President has consistently denigrated reputable media organizations while lending credence to Q Anon and assorted social media outlets for extremists.

And

• The President lauded Rudy Giuliani after his 'trial by combat ' remark preceding Trump's appearance. Also, rather more to-the-point incitement by Don junior.

To deny that the President intended intimidation in order to derail the final formality sealing Biden's victory is disingenuous.

[joan ofarc]

The absence of complete quotes speaks volumes, don't you feel a bit daft being taken in so easily.

Surely the easiest thing to do is put a few up.
Isn't the reality that when you look back without the orange mist you are struggling ?

It's pointless trying to reason with you. You say you want quotes....tell you what, why don't you post a transcript of his last rally speech and then defend what he said instead of expecting others to do your research. Also note that he did not rebut any of the other crazy threats such as 'we're comingfor you', 'time to take down names and kick ***', 'trial by combat' etc etc. Also you could believe your fellow posters and look back at almost any time your idol has spoken publicly then admit he has a history of violent incitement.
Your willingness to give him a pass at every turn makes you look as radicalised as the idiots who stormed the Capitol. There is no orange mist in my mind and I'm not over excited or obsessed with trump. BTW, that's a typical 'calm down dear' response often used to minimise women's responses. If you AREN'T outraged by the latest coup in the US there's something wrong.
Being charitable, I think you just enjoy being contrary and feeling superior.

[joan ofarc]

Don't you think your getting a little bit overexcited with Trump ?


Give me a few complete sentence of where Trump incited this rampage through Congress ?

No.

[silver fox]

The absence of complete quotes speaks volumes, don't you feel a bit daft being taken in so easily.

Surely the easiest thing to do is put a few up.
Isn't the reality that when you look back without the orange mist you are struggling ?

The only one struggling is you, you want someone to show were he explicitly told his followers to storm the Capitol or attack others, you know very well that Trump’s campaign has been a constant stream of lies, encouragement to the wild elements of his followers, praise for the pseudo militia groups, exhortation to stay strong, to fight for the cause, all that the losers are weak, the strong must fight.

Now tell me what the hell does that add up to? Never at any time has he acknowledged the truth, from the very start anything and everything which he didn’t like, or was in any way uncomplimentary, was “fake news” etc, etc:

The man was and is a danger to democracy, not only on the USA, but in every democratic country.

[local]

It's pointless trying to reason with you. You say you want quotes....tell you what, why don't you post a transcript of his last rally speech and then defend what he said instead of expecting others to do your research. Also note that he did not rebut any of the other crazy threats such as 'we're comingfor you', 'time to take down names and kick ***', 'trial by combat' etc etc. Also you could believe your fellow posters and look back at almost any time your idol has spoken publicly then admit he has a history of violent incitement.
Your willingness to give him a pass at every turn makes you look as radicalised as the idiots who stormed the Capitol. There is no orange mist in my mind and I'm not over excited or obsessed with trump. BTW, that's a typical 'calm down dear' response often used to minimise women's responses. If you AREN'T outraged by the latest coup in the US there's something wrong.
Being charitable, I think you just enjoy being contrary and feeling superior.

No problem here you are Trumps speech in all its literary glory well that is a bit of an exaggeration its more gibbon at times but still, the incitement isn't there is just a figment of yours and many others orange imagination;



https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...endiary-speech



You will feel a bit daft being taken along by the anti-Trump drivel though.

I must admit I am still amazed at the obsession with Trump and his utterances how pointing that out makes me a fan or a "radicalised" idiot I don't know.

[sandGroundZero]

In response to post #127:

Fascination with President Trump is primarily to do with the damage he has been able to wreak on the United States of America and indirectly the rest of the world.

That President Trump did not issue an explicit instruction to hang VP Pence unless he agreed to violate his oath to defend the Constitution, or even an instruction to smash windows in the Capitol, does not exonerate Trump from the charge of incitement (no matter how many times you, local, post that it does).

I, and I expect other Q Local posters, give you the benefit of considerable doubt — you're a wind-up artist and not too dim to realize Trump's long string of flagrant abuses including, but not limited to incitement, are reason enough to castigate and indeed, impeach him.

Deny being a "fan" of Trump 'til the cows come home; your serial excusing of Trump's vices puts you on the wrong side (of history). This much is clear.

[local]

In response to post #127:

Fascination with President Trump is primarily to do with the damage he has been able to wreak on the United States of America and indirectly the rest of the world.

That President Trump did not issue an explicit instruction to hang VP Pence unless he agreed to violate his oath to defend the Constitution, or even an instruction to smash windows in the Capitol, does not exonerate Trump from the charge of incitement (no matter how many times you, local, post that it does).

I, and I expect other Q Local posters, give you the benefit of considerable doubt — you're a wind-up artist and not too dim to realize Trump's long string of flagrant abuses including, but not limited to incitement, are reason enough to castigate and indeed, impeach him.

Deny being a "fan" of Trump 'til the cows come home; your serial excusing of Trump's vices puts you on the wrong side (of history). This much is clear.

Then now is your opportunity point out the incitement from the orange ones speech.

Copy them out so you and your coterie of orange misters can see me put in my place.

Imagine listing them all one by one you will feel so much better and superior.

[sandGroundZero]

The charge of incitement against President Trump is, as others have pointed out as well, derived from the cumulative impact of his pronouncements pretty much over the entire period of his Presidency. Trump's messaging reverberated across social media so that a nod and a wink from the President on January 6^th was sufficient to set the wheels in motion.

• All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical-left Democrats, …We will never concede. It doesn't happen. You don't concede with these steps involved.
• I say, sometimes jokingly, but there's no joke about it, "I've been in two elections. I won them both and the second one, I won much bigger than the first." OK.
• We didn't lose. And by the way, does anybody believe that Joe had 80 million votes? Does anybody believe that? He had 80 million computer votes. It's a disgrace. There's never been anything like that.
• And Rudy, you did a great job. …he fights, he fights.
• The states got defrauded, They were given false information.
• We will not cancel culture, You know they wanted to get rid of the Jefferson Memorial
  They'll knock out Lincoln too, by the way.
• They've used the pandemic as a way of defrauding the people in a proper election.
• But what about eight weeks ago?" You know they try and get you to go. They said, "Sir, In four years, you're guaranteed." I said, "I'm not interested right now. Do me a favor, go back eight weeks. I want to go back eight weeks. Let's go back eight week." We want to go back and we want to get this right because we're going to have somebody in there that should not be in there and our country will be destroyed and we're not going to stand for that.
• Election fraud and weak Republicans
• And they try and demean everybody having to do with us. And you're the real people, you're the people that built this nation.
  You're not the people that tore down our nation.
• And you have to get your people to fight.
• Our media is not free, it's not fare [sic].
  It suppresses thought, it suppresses speech, and it's become the enemy of the people.
• we're going to walk down to the capital and we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them.Because you'll never take back our country with weakness.
• And by the way, it's much more important today than it was 24 hours ago because I don't -- I spoke to David Perdue, what a great person, snd Kelly Leffler, two great people, but it was a setup.
• I want to thank the more than 140 members of the house. Those are warriors.
• Over the past several weeks, we've amassed overwhelming evidence about a fake election.
• And Mike Pence, I hope you're going to stand up for the good of our Constitution and for the good of our country. And if you're not, I'm going to be very disappointed in you. I will tell you right now. I'm not hearing good stories.
• [lengthy discourse on election fraud in] Pennsylvania, …Wisconsin, …Georgia, …Michigan
  …We won -- we won in a landslide. This was a landslide. They said it's not American to challenge the election. This the most corrupt election in the history, maybe of the world.
  So today, in addition to challenging the certification of the election, I'm calling on Congress and the state legislatures to quickly pass sweeping election reforms, and you better do it before we have no country left.
• We will clean up the voter rolls
• Now, they want to take down the wall.
• But I said something's wrong here, something is really wrong, can have happened. And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.
• So we're going to -- we're going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.
• We're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.

President Trump primed his partisans for months …years! No need to instruct them. Just "let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue" …
Perhaps it is fortunate that the DC police were lax. It's fortunate that the miscreants found themselves inside the Capitol without much kerfuffle. Given that there were some who'd prepared assorted weaponry, whatever planning they had done had not included the possibility that Trump's acolytes would find themselves inside! A bunch of wannabe American Revolutioaries got caught flat-footed.

…things didn't unfold quite as planned

[local]

The charge of incitement against President Trump is, as others have pointed out as well, derived from the cumulative impact of his pronouncements pretty much over the entire period of his Presidency. Trump's messaging reverberated across social media so that a nod and a wink from the President on January 6^th was sufficient to set the wheels in motion.

• All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical-left Democrats, …We will never concede. It doesn't happen. You don't concede with these steps involved.
• I say, sometimes jokingly, but there's no joke about it, "I've been in two elections. I won them both and the second one, I won much bigger than the first." OK.
• We didn't lose. And by the way, does anybody believe that Joe had 80 million votes? Does anybody believe that? He had 80 million computer votes. It's a disgrace. There's never been anything like that.
• And Rudy, you did a great job. …he fights, he fights.
• The states got defrauded, They were given false information.
• We will not cancel culture, You know they wanted to get rid of the Jefferson Memorial
  They'll knock out Lincoln too, by the way.
• They've used the pandemic as a way of defrauding the people in a proper election.
• But what about eight weeks ago?" You know they try and get you to go. They said, "Sir, In four years, you're guaranteed." I said, "I'm not interested right now. Do me a favor, go back eight weeks. I want to go back eight weeks. Let's go back eight week." We want to go back and we want to get this right because we're going to have somebody in there that should not be in there and our country will be destroyed and we're not going to stand for that.
• Election fraud and weak Republicans
• And they try and demean everybody having to do with us. And you're the real people, you're the people that built this nation.
  You're not the people that tore down our nation.
• And you have to get your people to fight.
• Our media is not free, it's not fare [sic].
  It suppresses thought, it suppresses speech, and it's become the enemy of the people.
• we're going to walk down to the capital and we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them.Because you'll never take back our country with weakness.
• And by the way, it's much more important today than it was 24 hours ago because I don't -- I spoke to David Perdue, what a great person, snd Kelly Leffler, two great people, but it was a setup.
• I want to thank the more than 140 members of the house. Those are warriors.
• Over the past several weeks, we've amassed overwhelming evidence about a fake election.
• And Mike Pence, I hope you're going to stand up for the good of our Constitution and for the good of our country. And if you're not, I'm going to be very disappointed in you. I will tell you right now. I'm not hearing good stories.
• [lengthy discourse on election fraud in] Pennsylvania, …Wisconsin, …Georgia, …Michigan
  …We won -- we won in a landslide. This was a landslide. They said it's not American to challenge the election. This the most corrupt election in the history, maybe of the world.
  So today, in addition to challenging the certification of the election, I'm calling on Congress and the state legislatures to quickly pass sweeping election reforms, and you better do it before we have no country left.
• We will clean up the voter rolls
• Now, they want to take down the wall.
• But I said something's wrong here, something is really wrong, can have happened. And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.
• So we're going to -- we're going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.
• We're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.

President Trump primed his partisans for months …years! No need to instruct them. Just "let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue" …
Perhaps it is fortunate that the DC police were lax. It's fortunate that the miscreants found themselves inside the Capitol without much kerfuffle. Given that there were some who'd prepared assorted weaponry, whatever planning they had done had not included the possibility that Trump's acolytes would find themselves inside! A bunch of wannabe American Revolutioaries got caught flat-footed.

…things didn't unfold quite as planned

So that's a no then.

You strangled all that font in vain,

why do you imbue the orange one with so many imaginary powers ?

His speech, well let's be frank his faintly organised ramblings certainly wasn't the stuff of legend was it?

It has achieved notoriety in its reporting, not its content, the journalist and reporters (or failed novelists) have just let their literary bowels loose after many years of leakage.

Trump is being swept out in a sea of verbal diarrhea by those who haven't the sense to restrain themselves.

Whatever you think of him he did get an awful lot of people to vote for him and vicariously insulting them is not too clever.

[silver fox]

Then now is your opportunity point out the incitement from the orange ones speech.

Copy them out so you and your coterie of orange misters can see me put in my place.

Imagine listing them all one by one you will feel so much better and superior.

I doubt very much that anyone has the time, space or patience to highlight all Trump's trigger points, however you know just as much as anyone else that the entire Trump Presidency, particularly prior and after the election has been one of blatant lies, deliberate misinformation, endorsing and encouraging the conspiracy theorists and militant groups, this is known as PROPAGANDA, the storming of the Capitol building is a direct consequence of that constant propaganda, whether it is the culmination, remains to be seen.

You know very well that propaganda campaigns have worked before and in fact still do, very often with dire consequences.

It must be noted that corporate, business and financial America has turned it's collective back on Trump, some feel this is rats leaving a sinking ship, for others a PR exercise as the Trump brand has become toxic, some of course with genuine concern of just how the whole thing has degenerated into something close to anarchy.

Defend and excuse all you wish, you will find very little support on here, take your comments over to the USA and get those comments ridiculed, apart from in a few areas, Trump was and still is bad news, clean your specs, remove the orange tint and wake up to what is the reality.

[local]

I doubt very much that anyone has the time, space or patience to highlight all Trump's trigger points, however you know just as much as anyone else that the entire Trump Presidency, particularly prior and after the election has been one of blatant lies, deliberate misinformation, endorsing and encouraging the conspiracy theorists and militant groups, this is known as PROPAGANDA, the storming of the Capitol building is a direct consequence of that constant propaganda, whether it is the culmination, remains to be seen.

You know very well that propaganda campaigns have worked before and in fact still do, very often with dire consequences.

It must be noted that corporate, business and financial America has turned it's collective back on Trump, some feel this is rats leaving a sinking ship, for others a PR exercise as the Trump brand has become toxic, some of course with genuine concern of just how the whole thing has degenerated into something close to anarchy.

Defend and excuse all you wish, you will find very little support on here, take your comments over to the USA and get those comments ridiculed, apart from in a few areas, Trump was and still is bad news, clean your specs, remove the orange tint and wake up to what is the reality.

You miss the point I'm not excusing or defending anything the Orange one didn't incite the mob to rampage through Congress, read his speech.

I am simply pointing out it didn't happen.

I have given a link to the proof, his speech is there in black and white.

His impeachment is a political farce and debases American Politics even further than when they elected the emetic.

How far down do they have to go to realise they are making fools of themselves.

China and Russia are already revelling and now this will embolden them further.

They have elected a facelifted geriatric to stand up to the world god help us all.

[sandGroundZero]

post #132

…Defend and excuse all you wish, …

I think we can agree that local is Q Local Southport forum's Trumpista.
Like many US voters who note Trump's personal shortcomings but voted for him anyway, local has her/his reasons for down-playing the damage President Trump has inflicted.
Unlike US voters, local's reasoning (if you can call it that) is, I suspect, that as candidate and as President, Trump endorsed an uncompromising BREXIT stance along with its Conservative party /UKIP advocates.

The last few years have demonstrated beyond doubt that politics in terms of voters' choices about which persons /party /issues to line-up behind are emphatically not based on careful consideration of impacts and consequences. It is largely an response to a single (or few) emotive slogan(s) and subject to persistent propagandizing.¹

1. I hope it is not necessary to add that the effect is remarkably consistent across the spectrum of political options. In this instance we may have to concede that there can be a thin "orange mist " effect colouring an otherwise dispassionate analysis of President Trump's behaviour.

[bensherman]

It's extremely naive to try to argue that Trump's speech did not incite violence. For a start it ignores context- he is in front of people , some of them carrying arms, and many in military garb, who had travelled hundreds or thousands of miles to do what they did.

And they were there because he invited them and told them "it would be wild", after spending months telling people that if he lost that would be because of fraud. And when he could not prove fraud, he led them to believe this was because other politicians, the courts and the media were all blocking him.

He told them , wrongly, that Pence who was in the Capitol, could change all this, which was tantamount to attaching a bullseye to his chest.

And he has applauded the threatening marches these people have made during Covid. He did not even criticise the plot to kill the Governor of Michigan.

It didn't need much to get them going, and he did enough. And when they vandalised, attacked and killed he did nothing to stop them or to get help.

Can we have some realism now? He provoked it and he deserves the consequences.