Lies

[The PNP]

That wouldn't be true would it ?

The EU earnings/income requirement, is getting on for double my combined pension of about £12k.....Check it out for yourself.

[sandGroundZero]

Careful investigation and analysis of the U S media especially since the 2016 election of President Trump has been querying the received wisdom namely, that distortion is primarily a consequence of 'social media' outlets.

If you look back over the last five years or so, one of the most significant developments has been the growth of "alternative facts", ie lies.

1. Greatly enabled by social media, anyone anywhere can inject a straightforward lie into the world, have it read by millions, and even start a movement. Somehow people have discarded judgement, and form their views based on the selection of "facts" they choose to believe.
2. The power of the liars extends to encouraging people to distrust the mainstream media who , with all their faults, still attempt to verify what they say.
3. But they are drowned out by the wave of misinformation, providing what people what to hear and saving them all that troublesome thinking.

— post #1

One caution: Evidence of activity vs. evidence of effect — that is, take care not to overstate the real effectiveness of social media, in spite of the undoubtedly high levels of activity. An alternative viewpoint is that it is the 'responsible ' print and broadcast media whose practices include regarding all Presidential utterances as news, even while calling-out and fact checking the falsehoods that amplifies a false narrative¹. Put otherwise, there has been for several decades a problem with the way so-called MSM have applied their professional journalistic standards including impartiality.

It is noteworthy that we tend to regard the baseline for trust in institutions the two decades after 1945 during which (and largely as a consequence of two wars and a major depression) trust had probably the zenith. Can we say with confidence that prior to the 20^th century popular trust in institutions was high?

__________________________________________________________________

And it's getting worse. We are about to get GB News, which has been likened to Fox.

It would be worthwhile to consider whether the same caveats to received wisdom do not apply in the United Kingdom, as well.

1. By 'narrative'we mean a cultural narrative, a kind of story that humans use to make sense of the world. Narratives take many particular forms, but relate to a central idea. One example would be "hard work is the path to success." Another would be "governments lie to their people." Narratives can exist in direct opposition to each other, such as "immigrants make this country great" vs. "immigrants are destroying this country." — Yochai Benkler

[Toodles McGinty]

I have little doubt he and others cut corners to secure PPE

Whether that translates to dishonesty we shall see.

As to the prorogation of Parliament,
The court stopped short of declaring that the advice given by Johnson to the Queen was improper. It was a question. they said, they did not need to address since they had already found the effect of the prorogation was itself unlawful.

Ultimately it only served to expose Gina Millar as a liar and delay at great expense to us all what the country voted for, a pyrrhic victory indeed.

Johnson " fighting like hell" to use the political vernacular, to support the democratic decision of the country was one of the finest and most heroic acts by a Prime Minister in recent history.

Did he cross the line, yep.

In other words, unlawful and a liar.

A court deemed Hancock's actions as unlawful. A court deemed Johnson's advice to the Queen was unlawful. So yes, that translates to dishonesty.

Back to that excusing the abhorrent as long as it suits your politics. It doesn't matter if someone breaks the law, as long as the ends justifies the means.

[silver fox]

Democracy is our countries greatest asset and you having the right to vote for Keir Starmer and get him should you be in the majority is what we all should support.

I agree with you the lies from project fear remainers were lamentable but common sense won out in the end.

As we have seen the world has carried on turning and The shelves are full.

This isn’t just about Brexit, it is about lies and dishonest actions, as far as Johnson is concerned, at the time of his lies to the Queen, it wouldn’t matter whether the PM was Communist, Labour, Liberal, Tory or whatever, the act of attempting to silence and override Parliament to further a single purpose stinks of totalitarianism.

That is something to be combatted whichever part of the political spectrum it comes from.

The way that the public voted is something we all have to live with, but I very much doubt that anyone voted for totalitarian government.

[sandGroundZero]

The question then, for the UK:

What is the origin of the disparity of belief
about facts versus falsity?

1. Is it social media? or
2. Are there a prior, long-standing explanations for social schisms?

As with the USA, Europe & elsewhere, the UK enjoyed a period of exceptional prosperity (if slightly muted by wartime debt) and comparative wealth equality in the 1950s. Our perceptions of what constitutes the norm relate to a short-lived, exceptional post-war consensus.

I'm backing Britain?

The neo-liberalism since 1980 may be a reversion to a longer-term trend rather than a perversion of the real Britain. There remains an institutional inertia which 1960s /70s 'progress' only briefly defied.

[Toodles McGinty]

Democracy is our countries greatest asset and you having the right to vote for Keir Starmer and get him should you be in the majority is what we all should support.

I agree with you the lies from project fear remainers were lamentable but common sense won out in the end.

As we have seen the world has carried on turning and The shelves are full.

More nonsense from ardent Quitters who read only what the hard right press feed them, dream of non-existent sunlit uplands, and don't understand the entire Brexit process.
The UK helped write the regulations the government are now claiming they have been side swiped by. Now they've brought in an 'unelected bureaucrat' - David Frost - because those elected to serve us were too lazy and arrogant to read the small print - it was too near Christmas, they were too busy. Typically Johnson wanted adulation without the work. All that Chamberlain-style paper waving before Christmas. Then they actually read the details, and are crapping themselves.

Now our ports are complaining that trade is 50% down. Normal freight routes through Britain are being avoided. We lost our standing as Europe's share trading hub.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together could see it coming. It isn't 'Project Fear', it is the simple application of logic: if you are in situation A, and you apply change B, the outcome is C.

Then it's 'er...it's a 10 year project', or 'it'll take 50 years to see the benefit..'.

Of course the shelves are full-ish. There a timetable to Brexit.

Phase one - few restrictions.
Phase two: April - all products of plant & animal origin will be restricted.
Phase three: July - everything.

[bensherman]

I have little doubt he and others cut corners to secure PPE

Whether that translates to dishonesty we shall see.

As to the prorogation of Parliament,
The court stopped short of declaring that the advice given by Johnson to the Queen was improper. It was a question. they said, they did not need to address since they had already found the effect of the prorogation was itself unlawful.

Ultimately it only served to expose Gina Millar as a liar and delay at great expense to us all what the country voted for, a pyrrhic victory indeed.

Johnson " fighting like hell" to use the political vernacular, to support the democratic decision of the country was one of the finest and most heroic acts by a Prime Minister in recent history.

Did he cross the line, yep.

Perhaps you could explain to us how Gina Miller was a liar.
All I can recall of that episode was (1) Johnson saying he would never do it ; and (2) Under his instructions Rees-Mogg lying to the Queen about the reason for it.
We had passed the Article 50 stuff 18 months earlier. What neither May nor Johnson could do was get their own party to agree on what terms we would leave on. He had an election so he could remove people who argued with him. Heroic is not a word I would associate with all that.

[Toodles McGinty]

Yes, nobody likes anything of great expense to the country, that is ultimately a massive waste of time and delays the action we should be taking.

Such as £22bn handed to cronies for track & trace that doesn't work, when it could have been handed to the NHS and local councils. As we've seen with the vaccination program, the NHS delivers.

[local]

In other words, unlawful and a liar.

A court deemed Hancock's actions as unlawful. A court deemed Johnson's advice to the Queen was unlawful. So yes, that translates to dishonesty.

Back to that excusing the abhorrent as long as it suits your politics. It doesn't matter if someone breaks the law, as long as the ends justifies the means.

No it doesn't make him a liar read the judgement .

[local]

Perhaps you could explain to us how Gina Miller was a liar.
All I can recall of that episode was (1) Johnson saying he would never do it ; and (2) Under his instructions Rees-Mogg lying to the Queen about the reason for it.
We had passed the Article 50 stuff 18 months earlier. What neither May nor Johnson could do was get their own party to agree on what terms we would leave on. He had an election so he could remove people who argued with him. Heroic is not a word I would associate with all that.

Thats easy Gina Millar lied repeatedly in saying her actions were about upholding the law not about delaying or stopping Brexit.

She lied about having a Law Degree.

Her business dealings are similary dubious.

She is a good self publicist or con-woman who took in many gullible people.

[local]

I think it was perfectly acceptable to get rid of Saddam and his conies.
As I said they had and had used WMD.
Just because they had hidden or got rid of them doesn't change the facts.

The Labour yes thats right the Labour government of the day had my support.

[Toodles McGinty]

I think it was perfectly acceptable to get rid of Saddam and his conies.
As I said they had and had used WMD.
Just because they had hidden or got rid of them doesn't change the facts.

The Labour yes thats right the Labour government of the day had my support.

Good, whether individuals agree or not, its a valid opinion backed by fact.

Saddam definitely used chemical weapons, and had extensive biological weapons supplied by the West.

For me, it was our involvement that was unnecessary. And as always, the vacuum left by removing dictators, particularly those aided and abetted by the West in the first place, can cause more problems than it resolves.

[Alikado]

I think it was perfectly acceptable to get rid of Saddam and his conies.
As I said they had and had used WMD.
Just because they had hidden or got rid of them doesn't change the facts.

The Labour yes thats right the Labour government of the day had my support.

They've been bloody well hidden, nobody has found any trace of them!
Our and US interference in the area has been nothing but a disaster, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan all ruled by not very nice people but our intervention has been nothing but an unmitigated disaster in all areas, hundreds of thousands of lives lost and the same again fleeing those countries coming to Europe.

[sandGroundZero]

…faux outrage … — post #69

Whataboutery. … — post #74

…just so. A bot resident on a server in a dingy (St Petersburg) warehouse could readily generate the taunts that keep this thread afloat.

[local]

They've been bloody well hidden, nobody has found any trace of them!
Our and US interference in the area has been nothing but a disaster, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan all ruled by not very nice people but our intervention has been nothing but an unmitigated disaster in all areas, hundreds of thousands of lives lost and the same again fleeing those countries coming to Europe.

Try telling that to the people of Halabja
What do you think killed them sunstroke ?

It defames these poor peop!es memories.
We have a business owner in our town who will explain it to you.

They didn't find anything after his thugs had cleared up is what you should be saying.