Middle east crisis.

[Hamble]

I do not campaign "for a one State Palestine", as I have noted previously. I believe a single state giving equal civil and human rights to all citizens (& legal residents) — whether Jewish, Muslim or other — is a settlement that best satisfies the needs of all. As for Zionism, it only matters because it necessarily precludes "equal civil and human rights to all citizens …". In fact, you have been wrong throughout this thread when you have attributed beliefs to me. You really have no idea.

I can only go on what you say on this Forum.

Supporting a one state Palestine through non violence gives you away.

[sandGroundZero]

I can only go on what you say on this Forum.

Supporting a one state Palestine through non violence gives you away.

The key point is equal civil and political rights The entirety of Israel-Palestine, that is including the West Bank of the River Jordan and the Gaza Strip is effectively, if indirectly in some instances, controlled by the government of the State of Israel. Israel including the West Bank and Gaza has been one state for more than 55 years. It is a state which practices apartheid! Jewish Israelis have civil and political rights, Arab Israelis different, diminished civil and political rights. Non-citizens — notably those resident in the OPT — are effectively stateless. In the West Bank, they suffer predation at the hands of well-organized, state supported Jewish settler communities. In Gaza and notwithstanding your recurring reminder of Israeli disengagement from Gaza, the enclave had been dependent upon and ruled by Israel (with Egyptian collaboration). It has now been devastated by Israel. I support equal civil and political rights for all. You do not. You insist that Palestinians will have their rights, once a Palestinian state is created. But that cannot happen because Israel's uncompromising Zionists don't want it to happen.

[Hamble]

The key point is equal civil and political rights The entirety of Israel-Palestine, that is including the West Bank of the River Jordan and the Gaza Strip is effectively, if indirectly in some instances, controlled by the government of the State of Israel. Israel including the West Bank and Gaza has been one state for more than 55 years. It is a state which practices apartheid! Jewish Israelis have civil and political rights, Arab Israelis different, diminished civil and political rights. Non-citizens — notably those resident in the OPT — are effectively stateless. In the West Bank, they suffer predation at the hands of well-organized, state supported Jewish settler communities. In Gaza and notwithstanding your recurring reminder of Israeli disengagement from Gaza, the enclave had been dependent upon and ruled by Israel (with Egyptian collaboration). It has now been devastated by Israel. I support equal civil and political rights for all. You do not. You insist that Palestinians will have their rights, once a Palestinian state is created. But that cannot happen because Israel's uncompromising Zionists don't want it to happen.

When Palestinian's gain Statehood they will decide their own political leadership.
Zionism will not be a part of the Islamic Republic of Palestine.

The two million Arab Muslim Israeli's in Israel are equal citizen's.
Any accusations you make of unequal civil rights in Palestine is complicated by one side (Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad) declared intention to kill Israeli's and Israel defending against constant attacks in the West Bank from Palestinian's.

Settlers have broken Israeli Law in attacking Palestinians dealing with this is harder in war.

Arab Israeli's have a lot more human rights in Israel than in Gaza.

[sandGroundZero]

When Palestinian's gain Statehood they will decide their own political leadership.
Zionism will not be a part of the Islamic Republic of Palestine.

1. The two million Arab Muslim Israeli's in Israel are equal citizen's.
2. Any accusations you make of unequal civil rights in Palestine is complicated by one side (Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad) declared intention to kill Israeli's and Israel defending against constant attacks in the West Bank from Palestinian's.
3. Settlers have broken Israeli Law in attacking Palestinians dealing with this is harder in war.
4. Arab Israeli's have a lot more human rights in Israel than in Gaza.

formatting added

Muslim citizens of Israel must contend with biases in the legal system. Basic Law: Israel - the Nation State of the Jewish People July 2018 It is not the case that settler violence and harassment of Palestinians is a consequence of October 7, 2023. Jewish settlement in the Occupied Palestinian Territory has been permitted by every Israeli government since shortly after the 1967 conquest. The Settler Movement is politically organized. Cabinet members Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich agitate for more and greater settlement activity. Ben-Gvir has organized a settlers' militia and provided it with weapons! While it is true Arab Israeli citizens enjoy some rights not available to non-citizen Palestinians, it only highlights the determination to permanently exclude the latter. The oppression of Palestinians in the OPT is ratcheting up. Doubtless it is hoped the young, at least, will give up their struggle and migrate away.

[Hamble]

Muslim citizens of Israel must contend with biases in the legal system. You have said yourself in numerous posts that Muslims cannot serve in the IDF. Basic Law: Israel - the Nation State of the Jewish People July 2018 It is not the case that settler violence and harassment of Palestinians is a consequence of October 7, 2023. Jewish settlement in the Occupied Palestinian Territory has been permitted by every Israeli government since shortly after the 1967 conquest. The Settler Movement is politically organized. Cabinet members Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich agitate for more and greater settlement activity. Ben-Gvir has organized a settlers' militia and provided it with weapons! While it is true Arab Israeli citizens enjoy some rights not available to non-citizen Palestinians, it only highlights the determination to permanently exclude the latter. The oppression of Palestinians in the OPT is ratcheting up. Doubtless it is hoped the young, at least, will give up their struggle and migrate away.

1.Correction.I did not say 'cannot' serve.
Muslim and Druse men and women serve in the IDF by Israeli Law they are exempt from National Service on religious grounds equal with the ultra religious Jews.

3.Settler violence and Palestinian suicide attacks on Israeli's is not an argument for a one State Palestine is it?

Israel partition before 1948 was an urgent decision.
Israel since 1948 has proved beyond any reasonable doubt that partition
is the only way forward.

It is frustrating that you do not get it.

Think of all the lives that could have been saved had Palestine agreed to partition as the Israeli's did.
That peace growth and diplomacy fostered could have benefited any land and religious tolerance in shared areas.

[sandGroundZero]

Hamble

It is frustrating that you do not get it. Think of all the lives that could have been saved had Palestine agreed to partition as the Israeli's did. That peace growth and diplomacy fostered could have benefited any land and religious tolerance in shared areas.

Hindsight is a fine thing. In retrospect: What if Palestine's Arab population had realized early that lobbying European imperial powers was the key to success? What if they had organized themselves with a clear-cut ideology? What if they had had direct access to the uppermost reaches of the UK, French, German and Russian governments in the first half of the twentieth century? Or even, what if the Ottoman Empire had been a little more open to European enlightenment values and modernism?

[Hamble]

Hamble

It is frustrating that you do not get it. Think of all the lives that could have been saved had Palestine agreed to partition as the Israeli's did. That peace growth and diplomacy fostered could have benefited any land and religious tolerance in shared areas.

Hindsight is a fine thing. In retrospect: What if Palestine's Arab population had realized early that lobbying European imperial powers was the key to success? What if they had organized themselves with a clear-cut ideology? What if they had had direct access to the uppermost reaches of the UK, French, German and Russian governments in the first half of the twentieth century? Or even, what if the Ottoman Empire had been a little more open to European enlightenment values and modernism?

Would anyone have trusted the Arab aims for peace after Palestinian Arabs Jordan and Egypt military coalition attacked the day old State of Israel?


https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...f-independence

[sandGroundZero]

Hamble's post #1577 ref: Alikado post #1576 Defending a border of occupied territory, when they retire to the pre 1967 boundaries they can then make that claim. Green Line (Israel) "The Green Line, (pre-)1967 border, or 1949 Armistice border[1] is the demarcation line set out in the 1949 Armistice Agreements between the armies of Israel and those of its neighbors (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria) after the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. It served as the de facto borders of the State of Israel from 1949 until the Six-Day War in 1967, and continues to represent Israel’s internationally recognized borders with the two Palestinian territories: the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.[2][3] The Green Line was intended as a demarcation line rather than a permanent border. The 1949 Armistice Agreements were clear (at Arab insistence)[4] that they were not creating permanent borders. The Egyptian–Israeli agreement, for example, stated that "the Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question."[5] Similar provisions are contained in the Armistice Agreements with Jordan and Syria. The Agreement with Lebanon contained no such provisions, and was treated as the international border between Israel and Lebanon, stipulating only that forces would be withdrawn to the Israel–Lebanon border." …

1955 United Nations map showing the Armistice Agreements, with original map reference points ("MR") on the Palestine grid referenced in the respective agreements.

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Israel and before 1948, HaYishuv HaYehudi Be'Eretz Yisra'el — the European Jewish settlers, benefitted from the support of initially European powers and latterly the U.S.A., all able and willing to supply it with superior armaments and logistics vis-à-vis Israel's Arab neighbouring states. Zionist leaders had never specified borders for their new country knowing that they wished to expand Israel beyond what the international community was willing to allow (at points through modern Israel's brief history). Israel gambles that its force deployment advantage is not reversed at some future date.

[sandGroundZero]

Palestinian children wait to receive food cooked by a charity kitchen in Rafah. Photograph: Ismael Mohamad/UPI/Rex/Shutterstock Israeli human rights groups accuse country of failing to abide by ICJ’s Gaza aid ruling Exclusive: 12 prominent organisations sign open letter criticising lack of humanitarian access Twelve of Israel’s most prominent human rights organisations have signed an open letter accusing the country of failing to comply with the international court of justice’s (ICJ) provisional ruling that it should facilitate access of humanitarian aid into Gaza. The court in The Hague made a number of legal requirements of Israel when it issued a provisional ruling in late January in response to South Africa’s complaint accusing the state of committing genocide in its military campaign in Gaza. The requirements included taking all measures to prevent intentional harm to civilians, facilitating immediate humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip, preventing and punishing direct or public incitement to genocide, and preserving evidence of any wrongful acts committed during the country’s war against Hamas. In their letter, the rights groups say Israel was legally obliged to implement the measures ordered by the court but has so far failed to do so. Signatories to the letter include the military whistleblower group Breaking the Silence and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel. “The ICJ order is a legal obligation to end the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza. It must be abided by, not only to ease the urgent suffering of civilians but for the sake of humanity as a whole,” the letter says. It also notes that the ICJ urged Hamas to immediately and unconditionally release all Israeli hostages. … Peter Beaumont | Mon 11 Mar 2024 © 2024 Guardian News & Media Limited

[shippy]

Muslim citizens of Israel must contend with biases in the legal system. Basic Law: Israel - the Nation State of the Jewish People July 2018 It is not the case that settler violence and harassment of Palestinians is a consequence of October 7, 2023. Jewish settlement in the Occupied Palestinian Territory has been permitted by every Israeli government since shortly after the 1967 conquest. The Settler Movement is politically organized. Cabinet members Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich agitate for more and greater settlement activity. Ben-Gvir has organized a settlers' militia and provided it with weapons! While it is true Arab Israeli citizens enjoy some rights not available to non-citizen Palestinians, it only highlights the determination to permanently exclude the latter. The oppression of Palestinians in the OPT is ratcheting up. Doubtless it is hoped the young, at least, will give up their struggle and migrate away.

The majority of sensible people of Israel started protesting against the current Government.

Ben Gvir is a trouble maker, which the majority of
Israelis don’t want him and his extremism…

[sandGroundZero]

The majority of sensible people of Israel started protesting against the current Government.

Ben Gvir is a trouble maker, which the majority of Israelis don’t want him and his extremism…

The long series of large weekly demonstrations in Israel before October were objecting to proposals with respect of the powers of the Israeli judiciary. The numbers of Israel's Jewish voters supporting the annexation of Samaria & Judea (a.k.a. the West Bank) and supporting expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank represents a large plurality, if not a majority. It is regularly asserted that Benjamin Netanyahu's political career must soon to end. That does not mean Israel's uncompromising Zionist ideologists are likely to be eclipsed by a coalition of MKs prepared to see the creation of a Palestinian state. Far from it! More likely, Israel will continue on its trajectory of no compromise vis-à-vis an independent state for Palestinians, unless and until Israel's backers — the U.S. primarily, with its Western allies — put diplomatic, economic and military pressure on future Israeli governments (with or without 'Bibi').

[shippy]

The long series of large weekly demonstrations in Israel before October were objecting to proposals with respect of the powers of the Israeli judiciary. The numbers of Israel's Jewish voters supporting the annexation of Samaria & Judea (a.k.a. the West Bank) and supporting expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank represents a large plurality, if not a majority. It is regularly asserted that Benjamin Netanyahu's political career must soon to end. That does not mean Israel's uncompromising Zionist ideologists are likely to be eclipsed by a coalition of MKs prepared to see the creation of a Palestinian state. Far from it! More likely, Israel will continue on its trajectory of no compromise vis-à-vis an independent state for Palestinians, unless and until Israel's backers — the U.S. primarily, with its Western allies — put diplomatic, economic and military pressure on future Israeli governments (with or without 'Bibi').

Myself, I have a very bad feeling that the hostages are not surviving the conditions that they are suffering.


I sincerely hope for the Palestinians and Israeli’s that some sort of deal will be offered..

[The PNP]

Myself, I have a very bad feeling that the hostages are not surviving the conditions that they are suffering.


I sincerely hope for the Palestinians and Israeli’s that some sort of deal will be offered..

I'd imagine, that when the dust finally settles, both sides will do some sort of deal, swapping hostages for prisoners.

[sandGroundZero]

US Holocaust survivors’ foundation calls Jonathan Glazer’s Oscars speech ‘morally indefensible’ The Holocaust Survivors’ Foundation USA has attacked The Zone of Interest director Jonathan Glazer for what it describes as his “morally indefensible” Oscar acceptance speech on Sunday. In an open letter published on the organisation’s website, the foundation’s chairman David Schaecter, wrote: “You made a Holocaust movie and won an Oscar. And you are Jewish. Good for you. But it is disgraceful for you to presume to speak for the six million Jews, including one and a half million children, who were murdered solely because of their Jewish identity.” Schaecter added: “You should be ashamed of yourself for using Auschwitz to criticise Israel. If the creation, existence, and survival of the State of Israel as a Jewish state equates to ‘occupation’ in your mind, then you obviously learned nothing from your movie.” Glazer, along with film producer James Wilson, won the best international film Academy Award for The Zone of Interest, about the daily life of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss and his wife Hedwig. In his speech, Glazer said that he and Wilson “stand here as men who refute their Jewishness and the Holocaust being hijacked by an occupation which has led to conflict for so many innocent people, whether the victims of October 7 in Israel or the ongoing attack in Gaza.” On Monday the Anti-Defamation League posted a message on social media attacking Glazer’s comments as “reprehensible”, saying: “Israel is not hijacking Judaism or the Holocaust by defending itself against genocidal terrorists. Glazer’s comments at the #Oscars are both factually incorrect & morally reprehensible. They minimise the Shoah & excuse terrorism of the most heinous kind.” Glazer has also received widespread support for his comments, including from Israeli military veterans’ organisation Breaking the Silence, which posted a statement on social media saying “[Glazer] took an unequivocal stance against the cynical utilisation of Judaism and the Holocaust in the name of justifying the occupation … we refuse to accept the ease with which the blood and lives of civilians is used as a justification for political ideologies, or as a bargaining chip. Empathy is not a zero-sum game.” Andrew Pulver | Tue 12 Mar 2024 © 2024 Guardian News & Media Limited

[sandGroundZero]

Israel broke international law with tank shelling that killed journalist, UN finds Israeli tank 'likely' fired machine gun at journalists after deadly shelling - video report IDF fired two rounds at ‘clearly identifiable journalists’ in Lebanon last year when there was no exchange of fire in area Reuters Wed 13 Mar 2024 21.01 GMT Last modified on Wed 13 Mar 2024 23.01 GMT An Israeli tank that killed a Reuters journalist and wounded six others in Lebanon last year fired two 120mm rounds at a group of “clearly identifiable journalists” in violation of international law, a UN investigation has found. The investigation by the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil), summarized in a report seen by Reuters, said its personnel did not record any exchange of fire across the border between Israel and Lebanon for more than 40 minutes before the tank opened fire, killing Issam Abdallah, a 37-year-old video journalist. “The firing at civilians, in this instance clearly identifiable journalists, constitutes a violation of UNSCR 1701 (2006) and international law,” the Unifil report said, referring to security council resolution 1701. The seven-page report dated 27 February continued: “It is assessed that there was no exchange of fire across the Blue Line at the time of the incident. The reason for the strikes on the journalists is not known.” …