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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuartli View Post
    As I said, it was seven years ago. Perhaps you haven't seen, for example, the multi-million pound sewage upgrade work done by UU over at Blackpool; noticed the fact that it covers two major Victorian cities' water and sewage requirements in Liverpool and Manchester or, indeed, any of the works undertaken in Southport (complete replacement of the lead water pipes in the area a few years ago).

    No I don't have shares in UU. But I do respect the remarkable work it does in looking after our water and sewage requirements over such a vast area of the North West.
    Surely these companies, with revenues measured in billions, which make vast profits for their shareholders, have an obligation to upgrade and maintain the waterways, pipes, reservoirs etc. They aren't doing it for nothing. We pay a lot, and unlike other utilities, we don't actually have a choice in which private company we use.

    We don't admire Tesco for getting a tin of beans into our homes. We pay for the service. We don't say how wonderful they are because they've thrown up a store, or opened a Tesco Express in some old building, we know they are doing it to make money. Same with water companies. If they don't maintain their properties, the water or sewage supply is interrupted, there used to be some kind of redress. They aren't being altruistic or performing some kind of charitable heritage endeavour.

    If Tesco started killing wildlife and destroying our rivers, we'd be going absolutely apeshit. Boycotting stores, demanding executives are arrested. We'd go elsewhere. But we can't do that with water. It's a monopoly. Wasn't privatisation supposed to present consumers with choice?

    Considering we are days away from COP26, our green credentials seem to have taken a thrashing. Killing wildlife and polluting our waters in the name of profit is reprehensible.

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  4. #17
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    In my original post, I asked why on earth would the government vote down an amendment to stop private water companies from dumping raw sewage into the UK’s rivers and coastlines.

    Answer: nearly 3/4 of the shares in England’s privatised water companies are owned by foreign firms, hedge funds, foreign governments and companies based in tax havens.

    What a brilliant idea. Putting our water in the hands of hedge funds. What could possibly go wrong?

    Oh, yeah, dead birds, E-Coli in drinking water, turds floating in rivers and a government that doesn't just turn a blind eye, but openly votes to allow it.

  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    Surely these companies, with revenues measured in billions, which make vast profits for their shareholders, have an obligation to upgrade and maintain the waterways, pipes, reservoirs etc. They aren't doing it for nothing. We pay a lot, and unlike other utilities, we don't actually have a choice in which private company we use.



    Considering we are days away from COP26, our green credentials seem to have taken a thrashing. Killing wildlife and polluting our waters in the name of profit is reprehensible.
    I think you do UU a great injustice. Try this link:

    https://unitedutilities.annualreport2021.com/

    Easy to criticise, but UU have to get on with the work, day in and day out, and overall do a remarkable job.

    I would suspect that you haven't gone through life in your work without even making one tiny error....

  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuartli View Post
    The last Environment Agency summary of water utilities' performances was, it seems, in 2019. UU appears to come out well:

    https://tinyurl.com/3yrvkx2e
    The Environment Agency did not publish data on the number of spill events and duration in hours until 2021. Even then it was only due to pressure on the EA, water companies and the government, due to the unacceptable levels of sewage pollution found in English waters.

    The 2020 figures show a very different picture for UU, it's top of the league. However, unless you don't give a damn about all of England's waterways, it's not just UU that should concern you. Your refusal to accept the unacceptable seems to indicate that, outside of the NW, you don't care at all.

    Every water company is allowed to discharge sewage in exceptional cases, but the increase in discharge events is disproportionate in comparison to the number of extreme weather events. It's only now being discovered due to monitoring the number of outflows.

    Private water companies operate for profit, and there's nothing wrong with that. However when their infrastructure is failing, it's time to invest some of their earnings into capital projects to rectify this situation. The shareholders won't like it, and neither will consumers who will ultimately bear some of the cost via increased rates. But to ignore this dreadful situation is unthinkable.

    2020 Discharge Events/Duration

    Name:  image.jpeg
Views: 0
Size:  235.9 KB

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  8. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuartli View Post
    I think you do UU a great injustice. Try this link:

    https://unitedutilities.annualreport2021.com/

    Easy to criticise, but UU have to get on with the work, day in and day out, and overall do a remarkable job.

    I would suspect that you haven't gone through life in your work without even making one tiny error....
    UU do an adequate job, for which they make 100s of millions of pounds for their shareholders.

    They aren't a wondrous, environmentally friendly charity. They are a mega-corps, profit led.

    If I've made one tiny error, or 100 massive errors, it didn't pour raw sewage into rivers and streams. It didn't kill wildlife.

    And most importantly, I didn't have government backing to say it really doesn't matter what errors I make, as long as the profits continue to pour in.

    And yes, that's a lovely, professionally produced report, full of 'action plans' and 'informed discussions' for its shareholders. Doesn't say how much damage has been done, does it?

    It really doesn't matter if they do an adequate job or a grand job, as we've no choice but to pay them, and they are only answerable to their shareholders.

    As I said in my OP, the Environment Bill would have placed a legal duty on water companies in England and Wales “to make improvements to their sewerage systems and demonstrate progressive reductions in the harm caused by discharges of untreated sewage.” But now they aren't obliged to do any of those things.

    Sewage was discharged into rivers 200,000 times in 2019, 400,000 times last year. UU was one of the worst offenders.

    I really don't care if it is United Utilities, Thames Water or whoever. Environmental protections have been stripped and destroyed. And, as consumers, there is nothing at all we can do about it.

    This map shows where the sewerage network discharges treated effluent and overflows of untreated effluent and storm water into rivers in UU areas. And this was before the government decided they can pollute as much as they like. You think this is going to improve?
     

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  10. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuartli View Post
    I think you do UU a great injustice. Try this link:

    https://unitedutilities.annualreport2021.com/

    Easy to criticise, but UU have to get on with the work, day in and day out, and overall do a remarkable job.

    I would suspect that you haven't gone through life in your work without even making one tiny error....
    It's not just one tiny error though, is it? How can you dismiss so many events that have had such a devastating environmental impact?

    Perhaps, like another Q member, as the Conservatives are in power, and you're a Conservative supporter, you won't countenance any criticism. All governments of all stripes sometimes make disastrous policy decisions. I've voted for 3 different parties over the years, and not once have I turned a blind eye to their mistakes or refused to criticise them.

    It's not all about fiscal results and rosy reviews of the past year and future plans. I used to compose annual reports, and I know how much the lily is gilded!

    I will say that UU's efforts to tackle flooding in Thornton are commendable. No doubt the River Trust and the community group of the Wyre Flood Forum helped in this regard by putting much needed pressure on UU. If this catchment scheme works they plan to establish partnerships in other problem areas of the NW.

    I see that some of UU's support came from the EU Life funded Natural Course Project. It ran from 2015 and would have ended in 2026. As this funding/ support no longer exists for the UK, I hope that your government will step in to fill the gap.

    https://www.theriverstrust.org/our-w...natural-course

  11. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by seivad View Post

    I see that some of UU's support came from the EU Life funded Natural Course Project. It ran from 2015 and would have ended in 2026. As this funding/ support no longer exists for the UK, I hope that your government will step in to fill the gap.

    https://www.theriverstrust.org/our-w...natural-course
    That tickled me.

    Cold War Steve yesterday:
     

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  13. #23
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    I am very happy to criticise the privatisation of our water supply and the successive mainly Conservative governments (including recently dear dear Boris) who have presided over the companies.

    There are some good operational reasons for the release of untreated water (sewage) in times of heavy rain flood etc but these are or should be rare.

    Of course this has been happening for too long and during our EU membership so that old turkey gets the boot.

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../en/ip_20_1563



    Thames Water is the Man United of water company debt ;


    Thames is easily the UK's largest water and wastewater services company with an annual turnover of £2bn. ... The company's most recent annual report disclosed that Thames had net debt of £11.73bn at the end of March and that the company's regulatory capital value was £14bn.



    I unequivocally condemn a system that allows this to happen.

  14. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by seivad View Post
    It's not just one tiny error though, is it? How can you dismiss so many events that have had such a devastating environmental impact?

    Perhaps, like another Q member, as the Conservatives are in power, and you're a Conservative supporter, you won't countenance any criticism. All governments of all stripes sometimes make disastrous policy decisions. I've voted for 3 different parties over the years, and not once have I turned a blind eye to their mistakes or refused to criticise them.
    I'm not dismissing events, nor the fact that I'm a Tory supporter have any relevance to the fact that overall UU do some good things for the huge area they cover.

    They have a better record than some other water utilities:

    https://tinyurl.com/fymzzjye

    Certainly watching Everton this afternoon proved far, far more worrying - at least I can have drink of water straight from the tap when at home!!

  15. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuartli View Post
    I'm not dismissing events, nor the fact that I'm a Tory supporter have any relevance to the fact that overall UU do some good things for the huge area they cover.

    They have a better record than some other water utilities:

    https://tinyurl.com/fymzzjye

    Certainly watching Everton this afternoon proved far, far more worrying - at least I can have drink of water straight from the tap when at home!!
    Rather sad you find a game of football more worrying than the wanton destruction of our wildlife and natural habitat.

  16. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by The PNP View Post
    Smells like it could be part of the Brexit 'dividend'. No longer subject to maintaining EU environmental standards, the UK Govt can do what it likes with $**t.
    Hurrah for 'sovereignity'!

    It has been going on long before Brexit - although it is in breach of the legislation covering such discharge.

  17. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by local View Post
    I am very happy to criticise the privatisation of our water supply and the successive mainly Conservative governments (including recently dear dear Boris) who have presided over the companies.

    There are some good operational reasons for the release of untreated water (sewage) in times of heavy rain flood etc but these are or should be rare.

    Of course this has been happening for too long and during our EU membership so that old turkey gets the boot.

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../en/ip_20_1563



    Thames Water is the Man United of water company debt ;


    Thames is easily the UK's largest water and wastewater services company with an annual turnover of £2bn. ... The company's most recent annual report disclosed that Thames had net debt of £11.73bn at the end of March and that the company's regulatory capital value was £14bn.



    I unequivocally condemn a system that allows this to happen.
    Of course they have huge paper debts, hence no corporation tax paid from 2011 to 2015, in 2017 they pledged to halt payments to shareholders until they got their finances and investment sorted, however they still managed to pay over £1million in dividends to the Kemble Water Holdings, the actual owners of Thames Water, in spite of that promise £871,000 was paid in 2020 alone, these are just snippets, couldn't be bothered going through all the accounts, but they show clearly how the system works, Thames Water carry the debt, therefore pay little or no tax, Kemble Water Holdings continue to profit, didn't find record of their tax payments, so presume that cash vanishes off shore.

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  19. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuartli View Post
    I think you do UU a great injustice. Try this link:

    https://unitedutilities.annualreport2021.com/

    Easy to criticise, but UU have to get on with the work, day in and day out, and overall do a remarkable job.

    I would suspect that you haven't gone through life in your work without even making one tiny error....

    Oh, wow! The Waterways Web Sites tell you what a wonderful job they are doing and they are above the standards of excellence. Readers come along and read all this - and believe it. Can you name one business web site that would publish the truth if that truth was detrimental to their profits?

    Licenses to grant Water companies the right to discharge raw sewerage were originally agreed in order to release the pressure on waster water pipes, etc.,

    The truth is that the dumping of raw sewerage has been increasing substantially over the years. The licenses for being allowed to dump such waste are in some cases more than ten years old, and the wording in granting these licences is 'so long as you try to clean up afterwards'

    Water companies have become complacent and continue to allow the practice not only to go on - but also in ever increasing volume. Now it is a money saving exercise.

    If more sewerage plants were built and used, then the already extortionate water bills would increase,there would be less brown fill land for housing and who wants to live near a sewerage plant anyway.



  20. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    If more sewerage plants were built and used, then the already extortionate water bills would increase,there would be less brown fill land for housing and who wants to live near a sewerage plant anyway.
    Agree, they stink for miles downwind!

    However, whilst living in another country (NL) things were very different.....The big circular filter-beds at my nearest sewage works, were capped with shallow concrete domes. Methane (and stink!) was thus completely contained and I believe burnt as fuel. I've always wondered why they can't do the same in the UK. Not only eliminating nasty smells, but preventing the greenhouse gas methane from escaping.
    On Yer Bike!

    www.20splentyforus.co.uk

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  22. #30
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    It’s getting a second vote in Parliament.
    Extract taken from Change.org

    ‘ 23 OCT 2021 —
    On Wednesday 20th October, MPs voted on Amendment 45 of the Environment Bill, which would force UK water companies to reduce sewage pollution every year until it is eliminated.
    Unfortunately, MPs voted by 265 to 202 against the amendment, with 265 Conservatives rejecting it and only 22 voting in favour. However, we have been given a second chance.
    The amendment will return for a SECOND vote in the House of Commons on Wednesday 27th October and this time we are determined to win. So, we must ask for your help one final time.
    Although we lost by 63 votes, 85 MPs were absent from the chamber or abstained. If we can convince these MPs to support us and a few more to change their minds, there is a genuine chance we can win this vote.’

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