Single market

[bensherman]

Have you cottoned on to how this affects your previous statements on here?

Not least who read and accepted Goldman Sachs fairy story.

The EU far from being tolerant and patient allowed a member country to load Greece up with debts they couldn't afford.

Even you might be able to see how wrong you keep getting things if you read this;


https://www.cfr.org/timeline/greeces...risis-timeline


Well maybe

Yes and it's fine.
Yes the EU was misled.
Your comment about "allowing a member country to load up Greece with debt" undermines your stance that the EU is excessively controlling. And shows great naivety in not grasping the state of the Greek economy before that.
I used to travel through Heathrow quite a lot. For two years an Olympic jet was parked there; impounded because the airline could not pay its bills. The national carrier.
I worked in Greece a few times and it was plain to see the levels of corruption and tax evasion.
That was long before the euro, by the way.
The greatest single drawback was that the EU put before the Greek government a reasonable plan to recover itself.
But they had an election and elected a government which had told people they could ignore all that. A familiar story...
Presumably if it had stayed in office its next trick would be to suspend gravity.

[local]

Yes and it's fine.
Yes the EU was misled.
Your comment about "allowing a member country to load up Greece with debt" undermines your stance that the EU is excessively controlling. And shows great naivety in not grasping the state of the Greek economy before that.
I used to travel through Heathrow quite a lot. For two years an Olympic jet was parked there; impounded because the airline could not pay its bills. The national carrier.
I worked in Greece a few times and it was plain to see the levels of corruption and tax evasion.
That was long before the euro, by the way.
The greatest single drawback was that the EU put before the Greek government a reasonable plan to recover itself.
But they had an election and elected a government which had told people they could ignore all that. A familiar story...
Presumably if it had stayed in office its next trick would be to suspend gravity.

Again you lay bare your lack of understanding, the EU knew full well what was going on and pretended they didn't for political expediency;

EU knew Greece's figures were fiddled


https://www.theguardian.com/business...igures-fiddled


https://www.theguardian.com/business...debt-crisis-eu

I am mystified why you keep putting up these posts.

[bensherman]

You've run out of road.

I have already said allowing Greece into the euro was a mistake, however that came about.

And that, far from being the controlling ogre we have been told it is, the EU was really too hands-off about the consequences.

But to start claiming that the EU was at fault when Greece ran out of road, is laughable. Self-inflicted.

Really you are scraping the barrel .

[sandGroundZero]

local

"Again you lay bare your lack of understanding, …
…
"I am mystified why you keep putting up these posts."

Greece's participation in the Euro was admittedly a badly handled and troublesome episode.

However, let's not pretend it has much bearing on the pros and cons of the UK's access to the single market.

[bensherman]

As in none.
As none members of the euro we did not pick up the bill.

[local]

You've run out of road.

I have already said allowing Greece into the euro was a mistake, however that came about.

And that, far from being the controlling ogre we have been told it is, the EU was really too hands-off about the consequences.

But to start claiming that the EU was at fault when Greece ran out of road, is laughable. Self-inflicted.

Really you are scraping the barrel .

Should we have a recap on what you have got wrong so far ?

Even now you post more tosh,it's as though you don't understand the basics of language

The EU clearly knew Greece's position and even a cursory glance at the books by a trained Baboon could see the position they were in.

Yet you absolve the EU of all responsibility, quite bizarre.

[sandGroundZero]

local

[said]

You've run out of road.

I have already said allowing Greece into the euro was a mistake, however that came about.

And that, far from being the controlling ogre we have been told it is, the EU was really too hands-off about the consequences.

But to start claiming that the EU was at fault when Greece ran out of road, is laughable. Self-inflicted.

Really you are scraping the barrel .

Ah bless! When you have finished your Janet and John books, you may be ready to read something more classical. The EU itself has been fined many times for breaching international laws. It has been subjected to many corruption issues both inside and outside Europe, the EU is an institution for serving the more wealthy people of the world at the expense of the poor. Do you suffer from Stockholm Syndrome or something?

[sandGroundZero]

said:

"Ah bless! When you have finished your Janet and John books, you may be ready to read something more classical. The EU itself has been fined many times for breaching international laws. It has been subjected to many corruption issues both inside and outside Europe, the EU is an institution for serving the more wealthy people of the world at the expense of the poor. Do you suffer from Stockholm Syndrome or something?"

… rather like the United Kingdom, then? .

[bensherman]

Ah bless! When you have finished your Janet and John books, you may be ready to read something more classical. The EU itself has been fined many times for breaching international laws. It has been subjected to many corruption issues both inside and outside Europe, the EU is an institution for serving the more wealthy people of the world at the expense of the poor. Do you suffer from Stockholm Syndrome or something?

Truly funny.

To accuse someone else of "Janet and John" thinking when you apparently were truly conned by Leave and even now can't see you were..
As for corruption...have you been in a coma? It's just that we now have an international reputation for corruption topped by a political party relying on Putin's gangster chums.
Your depiction of the EU as being there to serve the rich stands up to no scrutiny. But we live in a country with a greater gap between rich and poor than ten years ago and a government intent on making that worse.

[local]

Time to rustle up my old Socialist Chums for some scrutiny;

Two visions of European unity are starkly on show this week.

On one side are the bosses and politicians seeking to frighten and bamboozle people into voting to remain in the European Union (EU).

The bosses’ Confederation of British Industry and the governor of the Bank of England Mark Carney have openly backed the Remain campaign.

Their allies in the European Round Table of Industrialists, the International Monetary Fund and the White House are all for Remain.

This is the internationalism of profit-making. As their records show, they push globalisation for the needs of the rich.


Bankers’ institutions, which push polices that have wrecked whole economies, have the gall to lecture us about the dangers of leaving the EU.

On the other side there are the French workers sending a clear message across a continent—we have the power to fight back.

Whatever happens in France, it’s clear that changes to the working class during the last 30 years have not eliminated the potential for successful resistance.

Strikes can still be powerful—workers can bring the capitalist economy to the halt.

The indefinite rail strike in Belgium and the strikes in Greece are further signs that should cheer workers everywhere.

They will be hated by bosses, whichever side they take in the referendum.

The unity we want to see is based on international solidarity with workers fighting back across the world.

Workers’ internationalism is the polar opposite of the unity of the EU bosses’ club, which bolsters imperialism and leaves refugees to die at the borders of Fortress Europe.

“Our people” are not the rich and powerful of Britain or any other country.

“Our people” are workers in Europe and anywhere else in the world.

A victory against the bosses’ Work Law in France would be our victory too.

A Leave vote in the EU referendum would deal a savage blow to the bosses’ Europe, but it would not weaken the international links between workers in struggle.

The EU has done nothing to protect the rights of refugees or workers against the attacks of the bosses and the state.

It is resistance that will defend the rights we’ve won through struggle, not the EU.

That was true in the past and it is still true today.

Socialists should argue to break with the EU and organise as strongly as possible for workers to link up their struggles against the bosses of Europe.

[local]

Maybe I could post a few things about EU corruption but we all know about it anyway, well most of us.

Besides, there would be pages and pages.

It has to be said when you resort to the "Russian" (Petrov's) defence unlike in Chess you are in trouble intellectually.

Don't forget the theory is your mind was taken over by agents of the Russian State, but of course only if you voted leave.

No wonder the Remain team lost the intellectual argument they were led sheep-like, cowering into their pens after their brains were wiped.

[sandGroundZero]

I expect all posters to this thread can agree that local has demonstrated with his usual flair that the
Socialist Worker in its pre-referendum editorials and comments did, indeed, advocate for LEAVE.
Well done local !

What We Think
The European Union is a bosses’ club—and can’t be reformed

— 31 May 2016

Strikes in France show the way (Pic: Force Ouvriere)

Now, if he would address the question of the merits for the UK of access to the single market …?

[bensherman]

Time to rustle up my old Socialist Chums for some scrutiny;

Two visions of European unity are starkly on show this week.

On one side are the bosses and politicians seeking to frighten and bamboozle people into voting to remain in the European Union (EU).

The bosses’ Confederation of British Industry and the governor of the Bank of England Mark Carney have openly backed the Remain campaign.

Their allies in the European Round Table of Industrialists, the International Monetary Fund and the White House are all for Remain.

This is the internationalism of profit-making. As their records show, they push globalisation for the needs of the rich.


Bankers’ institutions, which push polices that have wrecked whole economies, have the gall to lecture us about the dangers of leaving the EU.

On the other side there are the French workers sending a clear message across a continent—we have the power to fight back.

Whatever happens in France, it’s clear that changes to the working class during the last 30 years have not eliminated the potential for successful resistance.

Strikes can still be powerful—workers can bring the capitalist economy to the halt.

The indefinite rail strike in Belgium and the strikes in Greece are further signs that should cheer workers everywhere.

They will be hated by bosses, whichever side they take in the referendum.

The unity we want to see is based on international solidarity with workers fighting back across the world.

Workers’ internationalism is the polar opposite of the unity of the EU bosses’ club, which bolsters imperialism and leaves refugees to die at the borders of Fortress Europe.

“Our people” are not the rich and powerful of Britain or any other country.

“Our people” are workers in Europe and anywhere else in the world.

A victory against the bosses’ Work Law in France would be our victory too.

A Leave vote in the EU referendum would deal a savage blow to the bosses’ Europe, but it would not weaken the international links between workers in struggle.

The EU has done nothing to protect the rights of refugees or workers against the attacks of the bosses and the state.

It is resistance that will defend the rights we’ve won through struggle, not the EU.

That was true in the past and it is still true today.

Socialists should argue to break with the EU and organise as strongly as possible for workers to link up their struggles against the bosses of Europe.

Because the people who know how industry and commerce in the UK works advised people not to leave, does not make the EU a capitalist wet dream.
It means people who understand how business works could foresee the harm that has undoubtedly been done.
But of course we were told that listening to people who knew what they were talking about was not what we should do.

[local]

Because the people who know how industry and commerce in the UK works for them advised people not to leave, does not make the EU a capitalist wet dream.
It means people who understand how business works FOR THEM could foresee the harm that has undoubtedly been done.
But of course we were told that listening to people who knew what they were talking about FOR THEM was not what we should do.

Just being helpful, after all, Labour supporters wouldn't be backing the David Camerons Conservative Government position would they?

Or was he a caring sharing Tory just like Boris?

Or maybe thinking the Bank of England cared about them.

Or and this one will make workers of the country fall about laughing Sir Philip Green.

Or how about that other friend of the workers Baron see you at the foodbank Rothschild.

Or maybe tax dodging Sir Richard Branson.



So, stands back for some supreme whataboutery