Gaza, Hamas etc

[silver fox]

Same as here. Incomers fetch-up in areas where their 'own people' have established themselves: Birmingham, Bradford, Rochdale, etc, etc.

I know you’re trying to switch the thread, but that is not comparable in any way.

[sandGroundZero]

Nick2

I think you’ll find that an Israel existed many millennia before 1948. Your post is far too simplistic.

It's a pernicious nationalist ideology that some long since moment of imperial grandeur vindicates aggressive territorial claims; the single most prevalent cause of violent conflict!

[local]

Pkease can someone explain in very easy terms what is going on and who us to blame. I am so very confused by it all.

Thanks

So the answer to your question is no and you will remain confused


You might take the current "war" as Israel is trying to rout out Hamas the terrorist group after they attacked Israel with a terrible assault.

Some call them Hamas terrorists, some call them freedom fighters.


Why they are at each other's throats could fill a few dozen pages and depend on which "tribe" you support.

[The PNP]

I know you’re trying to switch the thread, but that is not comparable in any way.

Irrespective of whether one people think they have a right to claim another peoples land, there is one distinct similarity...When the numbers entering from elsewhere passes a certain point, the indigenous population wakes up and begins to 'smell the coffee'. This leads to resentment, fear of being over-run and a backlash. Here it's currently manifested by rising calls to 'stop the boats!'.

[Hamble]

Hamas are Palestinian Radical Islamic extremists and a terrorist organisation banned in the UK USA and other Countries.

They are committed to the destruction of Israel use antisemitism threats and links with Iran to persecute Jewish people around the world.
Part of their lies are the the claim Jews stole the land of Israel from
Muslim's it is the basis of all Palestinian's justification of the horrors they commit when they cannot get their own way.

How does this affect you as a British person?
Would you support terrorism in the UK?
Would you support Palestinian hostage taking of tiny children women ant the elderly?
The rape and torture of innocent Israeli's?

If the answer to all of the above is no then join the call for Hamas to lay down their arms surrender releases all Israeli hostages.

[sandGroundZero]

silver fox

… Does it never occur to you why both Jordan and Egypt will not take in Palestinians, bear in mind that originally the West Bank came under the control of Jordan and the Gaza Strip of Egypt. … underline added

"originally"? How is a situation which pertained in hotly disputed circumstances between 1948 and 1967 the origin of anything? It apparently does not occur to you, silver fox, that there is an historical precedent, namely Palestinians forced out, or fled were subsequently denied return?

[The PNP]

How does this affect you as a British person?
Would you support terrorism in the UK?
Would you support Palestinian hostage taking of tiny children women ant the elderly?
The rape and torture of innocent Israeli's?.

'Terrorism' per-se is abhorrent, as is a State's military act of indiscriminately cluster-bombing civilians.

I'm the type of person who wouldn't normally hurt a fly. But if the UK were occupied against our will, I would relish joining the resistance and giving the occupiers the full Monty!

[silver fox]

silver fox

… Does it never occur to you why both Jordan and Egypt will not take in Palestinians, bear in mind that originally the West Bank came under the control of Jordan and the Gaza Strip of Egypt. … underline added

"originally"? How is a situation which pertained in hotly disputed circumstances between 1948 and 1967 the origin of anything? It apparently does not occur to you, silver fox, that there is an historical precedent, namely Palestinians forced out, or fled were subsequently denied return?

Anyone can play the blame game, point the finger etc, you may also recall that the Arab states encouraged fellow Arabs to temporarily leave the area until Arab states have removed Israel and then these temporary refugees could then move back and take all the territory for themselves.

A number of wars didn’t achieve this, quite the reverse in fact, the net result that neighbouring Arab states now had a lot of very disgruntled people, who couldn’t return to retake the territory, these groups formed the militant Islamist factions, these factions became so troublesome that their temporary hosts evicted them, Jordan and Egypt in particular.

It is then easy to make an argument that in fact the Arab states created much of the problem, of course it is much more complex than that, but one thing is obvious, there will be no peace as long as terrorists groups continue to operate, no country on Earth will tolerate continuous attacks without response.

A totally hypothetical and unlikely scenario, but should Welsh Nationalists organise themselves, then launch missiles and raids against England, what do you think the response would be?

[silver fox]

'Terrorism' per-se is abhorrent, as is a State's military act of indiscriminately cluster-bombing civilians.

I'm the type of person who wouldn't normally hurt a fly. But if the UK were occupied against our will, I would relish joining the resistance and giving the occupiers the full Monty!

You are obsessed with the concept that the Israelis are invaders and occupiers, in reality the state of Israel was only giving the Jewish people the right to their own territory, in exactly the same way that neighbouring Arab states were also granted their own territory.

I am of course aware that in recent years a major factor has been Israel’s expansion in the now occupied territories, bear in mind these same territories were previously occupied territories under the control of Jordan and Egypt respectively, the Six day war changed the occupiers.

[Hamble]

'Terrorism' per-se is abhorrent, as is a State's military act of indiscriminately cluster-bombing civilians.

I'm the type of person who wouldn't normally hurt a fly. But if the UK were occupied against our will, I would relish joining the resistance and giving the occupiers the full Monty!

You are the type of person that may not use physical violence to hurt another what you do in ignorance misinformation and racism is enough to
cause other human beings pain.

[sandGroundZero]

…
A totally hypothetical and unlikely scenario, but should Welsh Nationalists organise themselves, then launch missiles and raids against England, what do you think the response would be?

A totally hypothetical and unlikely scenario, but should Welsh Nationalists organise themselves, then migrate from Wales and the Welsh diaspora claim priority and expel large numbers of the existing population of England on the grounds that it was their land before Angles and Saxons arrived …

[Hamble]

A totally hypothetical and unlikely scenario, but should Welsh Nationalists organise themselves, then migrate from Wales and the Welsh diaspora claim priority and expel large numbers of the existing population of England on the grounds that it was their land before Angles and Saxons arrived …

?
Oh come on Pinocchio!


The decisive battle that delivered Palestine to the Muslims took place on August 20, 636. Only Jerusalem and Caesarea held out, the former until 638, when it surrendered to the Muslims, and the latter until October 640. Palestine, and indeed all of Syria, was then in Muslim hands.

[Hamble]

Radical Islamism is not about land rights it is about control and domination whether that be over religion or women or military might or anyone who stands up for the rights of those who oppose draconian religious practices committed in the name of religion.

Whether it be freedom of speech or British school teachings or invasion of another country (nothing to do with Israel or British Jews) Radical Islamist
terrorism is always directed at civilian's.

[Toodles McGinty]

How do people think countries are formed?

Even our own islands, split up into 4 with Scotland, Wales, England & NI.

How did mainland Europe become the countries it has? South America? Africa?

Go back millennia, go back 70 years. All formed from war, conflict, political unrest, interference from outside forces. How many different rulers has the area we call the Middle East had?

So tell me how the state of Israel came about? Any different?

If all these people coming in and displacing other from their lands is worth fighting about, can my family have their Scottish island back? We were there first.

How about sorting out Bosnia, Serbia etc. All that ethno-religious conflict. Make them Yugoslavia again.

Oh yes, we can't. It's done. We can't turn the clock back to 2001, never mind the 1940s. So why do you keep wanting to do it with Israel. It doesn't matter if Israel wishes to welcome European Jews or Chinese Rastafarians. Israel is a country, and Israel can choose who lives there. So this constant picking over of the history of what has basically been the cockpit of the Middle East is a waste of time.

Zionists in the 19th century? Irrelevant. Western interference in the early part of the 20th century? Irrelevant. Ethnicity of modern day Palestinians - Arabs or Immigrants from southern Europe / Africa? Irrelevant.

Israel exists. It has to defend itself from Muslim / Arab nations. No question about it. Palestine exists, and should exist as an independent state. You know what that will involve? Interference from outside forces. It will happen. Get over it. Look to the future, look to ways of solving the conflict.

But all this they should live there / they shouldn't live there is completely irrelevant. What's happened has happened. No turning back the clock to the dark ages. To 1940. To 1850. It isn't going to happen and is meaningless today. The faster people get over that, the easier a solution will be.

[sandGroundZero]

After two devastating world wars in 30 years, the victors thought they could create institutions that would contain or minimize, if not eliminate violent conflict. That idealism proved chimaeric. Though the rhetoric international laws governing relations among states keeps appearing, the realpolitik of the strong prevailing over the weak gives the lie to that rhetoric. "How many different rulers has the area we call the Middle East had?" How many, indeed? It's an ideological perversion to assert that some area of land is eternally God-given; that ancient history vindicates expropriation. But that is pretty much what had happened in Palestine. Trouble is, the expropriated are not taking it lying down! There is no end result. Just process.