Boeing

[bensherman]

Appears to be in trouble.

After decades as the acknowledged number one in aviation, it is now fast acquiring a reputation that airlines and the people who travel in them, can't trust them.

I can recall boarding a plane in the US maybe 20 years ago when the ( I guess) business type in front of me realised it was an Airbus and he was actually stressed by the discovery. There used to be a saying " If it's not Boeing, I ain't going".

But the well-publicised incidents of the last couple of weeks, following the doubts about the 737 Max a few years ago, are changing things. And airlines , post Covid, are enlarging fleets again and finding faults on Boeing planes they can't put into service. Which costs Boeing in money and reputation.

Two things seem to have done this.

One was the way Boeing hoovered up other US aerospace companies ( most notably McDonnell Douglas) who simply couldn't compete. But senior jobs in Boeing started to be filled by executives from those companies, who had been focusing on cost reduction for years rather than quality and engineering , and they brought their preferences to their jobs.

The second, and related to this, was the way Boeing moved away from Everett, in Seattle, to open plants elsewhere, away from the heavily unionised Seattle. One of these was to South Carolina, where the recent defects have been originating. In addition Boeing started to sub-contract more and became reliant on the quality consciousness of suppliers.

While Airbus is profiting from Boeing's problems, despite being in the main highly-unionised.

The stakes are very high. Airlines don't want many varied types and suppliers. That costs money to maintain and risks greater downtime of the aircraft they operate. Ryanair, for example, works its fleet far more intensively than BA does and will not tolerate doubts about the aircraft it is buying.

It will be interesting to see how this develops.

[The PNP]

Perhaps they'll bounce back.....Boing!


Tbh, I've never been 100% happy when in the air, because your fate is entirely out of your hands. There's always that little voice in the back of your mind, reminding you that there is nothing beneath but a whole lot of thin air.

Alarming factoid: Passenger plane recently overshot a Far Eastern destination - because both pilots had gone to sleep!

[Humphrey Rhodes]

Perhaps they'll bounce back.....Boing!


Tbh, I've never been 100% happy when in the air, because your fate is entirely out of your hands. There's always that little voice in the back of your mind, reminding you that there is nothing beneath but a whole lot of thin air.

Alarming factoid: Passenger plane recently overshot a Far Eastern destination - because both pilots had gone to sleep!

I thought you were a seasoned flier, after all most of your comments tend to be pie in the sky.

[justbecause]

I thought you were a seasoned flier, after all most of your comments tend to be pie in the sky.

[The PNP]

I thought you were a seasoned flier, after all most of your comments tend to be pie in the sky.

Very funny!

In my time, I did have to make long flights, but that was because of my work.....Oz, Far East, Gulf, Pakistan, USA, S Africa, etc, fortunately none of which I had to pay for. But always with that sense of relief, on getting back on the ground.

[Nick2]

Very funny!

In my time, I did have to make long flights, but that was because of my work.....Oz, Far East, Gulf, Pakistan, USA, S Africa, etc, fortunately none of which I had to pay for. But always with that sense of relief, on getting back on the ground.

We've done the return UK/Aus. trip about 14 times over the past 48 years and have always felt completely safe. A lot safer than driving my car through town, whilst dodging errant cyclists . One incident that sticks in my mind is taking off from Singapore and flying into a tropical thunder storm, with the aircraft surrounded by forked lightning. It was quite spectacular and we felt perfectly relaxed, knowing that we wouldn't be up there, if it hadn't been safe to fly.

[The PNP]

We've done the return UK/Aus. trip about 14 times over the past 48 years and have always felt completely safe. A lot safer than driving my car through town, whilst dodging errant cyclists . One incident that sticks in my mind is taking off from Singapore and flying into a tropical thunder storm, with the aircraft surrounded by forked lightning. It was quite spectacular and we felt perfectly relaxed, knowing that we wouldn't be up there, if it hadn't been safe to fly.

A long time to be sat in a seat, for sure. If I remember right, it took us (had my partner with me) 17hours from Oz to UK, with an hours pit-stop in the Gulf.

Mot unsettling flight was from SA to UK, calling at Luanda (Namibia) at night, during the long war with SWAPO. We remained on-board, but could see out the window to where a ring of armed soldiers surrounded the plane at a distance of a couple hundred metres - all stood facing out into the darkness. Their job to defend the plane from possible guerrilla attack....Departing from that place, was the only time I ever felt glad to be back in the air!

[Nick2]

A long time to be sat in a seat, for sure. If I remember right, it took us (had my partner with me) 17hours from Oz to UK, with an hours pit-stop in the Gulf.

Mot unsettling flight was from SA to UK, calling at Luanda (Namibia) at night, during the long war with SWAPO. We remained on-board, but could see out the window to where a ring of armed soldiers surrounded the plane at a distance of a couple hundred metres - all stood facing out into the darkness. Their job to defend the plane from possible guerrilla attack....Departing from that place, was the only time I ever felt glad to be back in the air!

Melbourne to Dubai - 14 hours plus Dubai to Heathrow - 8 hours. You’d need a Concorde to do it in 17hours.

[local]

Appears to be in trouble.

After decades as the acknowledged number one in aviation, it is now fast acquiring a reputation that airlines and the people who travel in them, can't trust them.

I can recall boarding a plane in the US maybe 20 years ago when the ( I guess) business type in front of me realised it was an Airbus and he was actually stressed by the discovery. There used to be a saying " If it's not Boeing, I ain't going".

But the well-publicised incidents of the last couple of weeks, following the doubts about the 737 Max a few years ago, are changing things. And airlines , post Covid, are enlarging fleets again and finding faults on Boeing planes they can't put into service. Which costs Boeing in money and reputation.

Two things seem to have done this.

One was the way Boeing hoovered up other US aerospace companies ( most notably McDonnell Douglas) who simply couldn't compete. But senior jobs in Boeing started to be filled by executives from those companies, who had been focusing on cost reduction for years rather than quality and engineering , and they brought their preferences to their jobs.

The second, and related to this, was the way Boeing moved away from Everett, in Seattle, to open plants elsewhere, away from the heavily unionised Seattle. One of these was to South Carolina, where the recent defects have been originating. In addition Boeing started to sub-contract more and became reliant on the quality consciousness of suppliers.

While Airbus is profiting from Boeing's problems, despite being in the main highly-unionised.

The stakes are very high. Airlines don't want many varied types and suppliers. That costs money to maintain and risks greater downtime of the aircraft they operate. Ryanair, for example, works its fleet far more intensively than BA does and will not tolerate doubts about the aircraft it is buying.

It will be interesting to see how this develops.

Ryanair announced on Tuesday that it has signed up to buy as many as 300 Boeing 373 Max 10 aircraft – at a total value of more than $40 billion (€36.6 billion), based at the jets’ listed price. That’ about $133 million each.

[bensherman]

Several things there.

One, it takes a very long time before an order is finalised. Ryanair probably doesn't expect delivery for several years, with various points where they can cancel. It's likely they drove a hard bargain as players like United and American hesitate.

Remember American is the world's biggest airline, and that Ryanair does not use the 787.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...le/ar-BB1jL0yA

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news...ys/ar-BB1jYCNk

https://samchui.com/2019/08/09/airli...uction-issues/

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/15/e...omy/index.html

[Toodles McGinty]

If you've got Sky, you might want to watch the recent 'Last Week Tonight' episode where John Oliver investigates Boeing.

It makes grim watching. Though he presents it in an amusing way, it is absolutely terrifying.

When Boeing expanded it started contracting out most production of parts. Those contractors contracted out further, parts were made with no oversight, no checks, no safety standards. When the planes were put together with all these separate parts, many didn't fit.

There's a particular feature of one part that sent planes into a nose dive that the pilots couldn't pull out of. The planes were grounded for a while.

Their own engineers won't fly on the 737 Max.

Apparently on certain flight booking websites, one feature is a choice of plane. Few check 'Boeing'. After watching that, I'll avoid them in future.

[local]

Several things there.

One, it takes a very long time before an order is finalised. Ryanair probably doesn't expect delivery for several years, with various points where they can cancel. It's likely they drove a hard bargain as players like United and American hesitate.

Remember American is the world's biggest airline, and that Ryanair does not use the 787.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...le/ar-BB1jL0yA

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news...ys/ar-BB1jYCNk

https://samchui.com/2019/08/09/airli...uction-issues/

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/15/e...omy/index.html

Nope just one, you got it wrong



The stakes are very high. Airlines don't want many varied types and suppliers. That costs money to maintain and risks greater downtime of the aircraft they operate. Ryanair, for example, works its fleet far more intensively than BA does and will not tolerate doubts about the aircraft it is buying.

[bensherman]

And you don't know much about their business.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvDp6ClbY0c

[Little Londoner]

Well I'm shocked I thought Bicycle Repairman was like Superman the moment he sensed punctures broken chains buckled wheels he nipped in a telephone box changed into his Bib & Brace Overalls and flew off to all corners of the planet to get cyclists moving again now he tells us he flew by plane. What are we going to tell our Grandchildren now.

Has anyone any news on who won the Russian Presidential Election just asking for a friend who had ten bob each way on Oleg Getyerkecksoff.

[said]

Appears to be in trouble.

After decades as the acknowledged number one in aviation, it is now fast acquiring a reputation that airlines and the people who travel in them, can't trust them.

I can recall boarding a plane in the US maybe 20 years ago when the ( I guess) business type in front of me realised it was an Airbus and he was actually stressed by the discovery. There used to be a saying " If it's not Boeing, I ain't going".

But the well-publicised incidents of the last couple of weeks, following the doubts about the 737 Max a few years ago, are changing things. And airlines , post Covid, are enlarging fleets again and finding faults on Boeing planes they can't put into service. Which costs Boeing in money and reputation.

Two things seem to have done this.

One was the way Boeing hoovered up other US aerospace companies ( most notably McDonnell Douglas) who simply couldn't compete. But senior jobs in Boeing started to be filled by executives from those companies, who had been focusing on cost reduction for years rather than quality and engineering , and they brought their preferences to their jobs.

The second, and related to this, was the way Boeing moved away from Everett, in Seattle, to open plants elsewhere, away from the heavily unionised Seattle. One of these was to South Carolina, where the recent defects have been originating. In addition Boeing started to sub-contract more and became reliant on the quality consciousness of suppliers.

While Airbus is profiting from Boeing's problems, despite being in the main highly-unionised.

The stakes are very high. Airlines don't want many varied types and suppliers. That costs money to maintain and risks greater downtime of the aircraft they operate. Ryanair, for example, works its fleet far more intensively than BA does and will not tolerate doubts about the aircraft it is buying.

It will be interesting to see how this develops.

I would not consider Airbus being any better:
In July 2023, Pratt & Whitney announced that it had found a rare metal defect in its GTX engines from 2015-2020 that could potentially cause cracks in the engine components. Around 600 to 700 of the A320neo aircraft with its engines would have to be grounded between 2023 and 2026 for inspections.9 Jan 2024

As of January 2024, 180 aviation accidents and incidents have occurred, including 38 hull loss accidents, and a total of 1505 fatalities in 17 fatal accidents.