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Thread: Brexit again

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bensherman View Post
    Agree with all of that and there remains the fundamental issue of regulation, in that if our farmers, manufacturers adopt US standards they will not satisfy EU standards. That has been sitting there as a fundamental problem for the whole time
    The UK government appears to be talking out of both sides of its mouth when talking about UK food standards. On one side they are rejecting the House of Lords amendments to the Agriculture Bill, which would require that imported food products meet UK standards on animal welfare, food safety and the environment. They are also rejecting an amendment specifying that the Trade & Agriculture Commission must scrutinise all trade deals. All of which signals that they are prepared to accept different standards on food products imported from all other countries.

    On the other side of their mouth they are claiming that they will only accept UK food standards in trade negotiations, despite the fact that in British law they will be able to accept any standards on imported food products.

    So Brexit supporters, do you care if food standards are lower than those you currently enjoy? And why, if the government intends to insist that in trade agreements food imports must comply with British standards, is it refusing to support legislation for the same?

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  4. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by seivad View Post
    The UK government appears to be talking out of both sides of its mouth when talking about UK food standards. On one side they are rejecting the House of Lords amendments to the Agriculture Bill, which would require that imported food products meet UK standards on animal welfare, food safety and the environment. They are also rejecting an amendment specifying that the Trade & Agriculture Commission must scrutinise all trade deals. All of which signals that they are prepared to accept different standards on food products imported from all other countries.

    On the other side of their mouth they are claiming that they will only accept UK food standards in trade negotiations, despite the fact that in British law they will be able to accept any standards on imported food products.

    So Brexit supporters, do you care if food standards are lower than those you currently enjoy? And why, if the government intends to insist that in trade agreements food imports must comply with British standards, is it refusing to support legislation for the same?
    The government won’t put legislation in place for food standards because this will prevent them for doing under the table deals with anyone, one thing absolutely certain, any deal which involves lowering food standards will be done without much mention of that fact.

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  6. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by silver fox View Post
    The government won’t put legislation in place for food standards because this will prevent them for doing under the table deals with anyone, one thing absolutely certain, any deal which involves lowering food standards will be done without much mention of that fact.
    I'm sure of it. We/you may think that we know what is being agreed on during negotiations, but for the most part we don't have a clue until the deal is finalized. Another problem is that under the UK & Canada's government system, Parliamentary approval isn't necessary. We've had a few unpleasant surprises when they are a done deal. The US, on the other hand, has a very open transparent process, and deals must be ratified by Congress and the Senate.

    I also see that the US is insisting that the UK doesn't include the origin of imported US food products on the product label. They view it as discriminatory. I hope the government doesn't cave on that one. The consumer has a right to see where food comes from.

    I reject buying US food products whenever possible. Not necessarily because of their standards, which in many cases are the same as our own, but on a point of principle and to avoid getting E. Coli from the constant outbreaks on their salad greens, spinach etc. I'm fussy about my meat and only buy it from a local farmer's cooperative. It costs more, but well worth it for the quality, support of small local farmers and happy naturally raised animals.

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  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by seivad View Post
    A) I also see that the US is insisting that the UK doesn't include the origin of imported US food products on the product label. They view it as discriminatory. I hope the government doesn't cave on that one. The consumer has a right to see where food comes from.

    B) I'm fussy about my meat and only buy it from a local farmer's cooperative. It costs more, but well worth it for the quality, support of small local farmers and happy naturally raised animals.
    A) What a nightmare....I had at least hoped to be able to avoid buying dodgy foodstuffs, by looking for 'country of origin' details. The Govt may be fulfilling the wishes of those who voted to leave the EU, by cutting ties with our European neighbours. But foisting cr@ppy foreign food onto everyone is another matter entirely - who voted for that!

    B) Sounds like a plan. Should it become necessary, I'll be doing the same.
    Last edited by The PNP; 19/10/2020 at 08:25 PM.
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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by The PNP View Post
    A) What a nightmare....I had at least hoped to be able to avoid buying dodgy foodstuffs, by looking for 'country of origin' details. While the Govt may be fulfilling the wishes of those who voted to leave the EU, by cutting ties with our European neighbours. But foisting cr@ppy foreign food onto everyone is another matter entirely - who voted for that!

    B) That sounds like a plan. If it becomes necessary, I'll be doing the same.

    You are joking of course! There was so much crap food being imported from Europe, that after it stayed on the shelves for a long time, stockists were forced to label British home grown foods so that the British would buy it.

    I do not like American foods - they don't even have to label it as such because it is easy to spot. But even so - you go on protesting about American foods when Tesco were found to be selling horsemeat in their burgers that originated from Ireland - er, the EU's Republic of Ireland, that is.

    Much of our produce and fruit was sourced from EU member countries. In 2009, around 74,000 cases of the food borne Novovirus poisoning were reported in the UK, making it the third most serious of food poisoning in the UK.

    In 2014, the British Food Standard agency revealed that two thirds of chicken sold in British supermarkets was contaminated and was the cause of thousands of food poisoning cases in the UK. The Chicken was sourced from British Company - Faccenda. Facenda Foods had joined with the behemoth USA company of Cargill. Long, long before Brexit. The other company involved was The Two Sisters Food Group, registered in the UK and owned by Ranjit Singh Boparan.

    "The allegations have been made against two of the largest UK poultry processors, 2 Sisters Food Group and Faccenda. They relate to two factories owned by 2 Sisters that supply fresh chicken and chicken for ready meals to Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury’s, Aldi, M&S, KFC and to farms and an abattoir owned by Faccenda, which supplies Asda and Nando’s."

    The allegations are that:
    Chickens which fall on to the floor have repeatedly been put back on to the production line at two 2 Sisters sites. They company denies this ever happens and says all chicken from the floor is correctly disposed of as waste.
    Breakdowns led to high-risk material – feathers, guts and offal – piling up for hours on separate occasions while production continued at a 2 Sisters factory in Wales. The company says they did not stop the line because they had to consider the welfare of chickens waiting in crates to be killed.
    Another breakdown led to the water in scald tanks at the same site not being cleaned for three days, so that around 250,000 birds passed through dirty water after slaughter. The company says this was an isolated incident that lasted only one day, bacteria counts were checked and were acceptable.
    According to a whistleblower chicken catcher, biosecurity rules to stop the spread of campylobacter in chicken sheds at Faccenda were regularly ignored by workers when he was employed there. Faccenda says this is not true and it has invested heavily in a highly trained and motivated workforce.
    Campylobacter contamination has plagued the poultry industry for more than a decade and has got worse in that time.

    Anyway - I think American Foods should be way down on your list.










  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    You are joking of course! There was so much crap food being imported from Europe, that after it stayed on the shelves for a long time, stockists were forced to label British home grown foods so that the British would buy it.

    I do not like American foods - they don't even have to label it as such because it is easy to spot. But even so - you go on protesting about American foods when Tesco were found to be selling horsemeat in their burgers that originated from Ireland - er, the EU's Republic of Ireland, that is.

    Much of our produce and fruit was sourced from EU member countries. In 2009, around 74,000 cases of the food borne Novovirus poisoning were reported in the UK, making it the third most serious of food poisoning in the UK.

    In 2014, the British Food Standard agency revealed that two thirds of chicken sold in British supermarkets was contaminated and was the cause of thousands of food poisoning cases in the UK. The Chicken was sourced from British Company - Faccenda. Facenda Foods had joined with the behemoth USA company of Cargill. Long, long before Brexit. The other company involved was The Two Sisters Food Group, registered in the UK and owned by Ranjit Singh Boparan.

    "The allegations have been made against two of the largest UK poultry processors, 2 Sisters Food Group and Faccenda. They relate to two factories owned by 2 Sisters that supply fresh chicken and chicken for ready meals to Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury’s, Aldi, M&S, KFC and to farms and an abattoir owned by Faccenda, which supplies Asda and Nando’s."

    The allegations are that:
    Chickens which fall on to the floor have repeatedly been put back on to the production line at two 2 Sisters sites. They company denies this ever happens and says all chicken from the floor is correctly disposed of as waste.
    Breakdowns led to high-risk material – feathers, guts and offal – piling up for hours on separate occasions while production continued at a 2 Sisters factory in Wales. The company says they did not stop the line because they had to consider the welfare of chickens waiting in crates to be killed.
    Another breakdown led to the water in scald tanks at the same site not being cleaned for three days, so that around 250,000 birds passed through dirty water after slaughter. The company says this was an isolated incident that lasted only one day, bacteria counts were checked and were acceptable.
    According to a whistleblower chicken catcher, biosecurity rules to stop the spread of campylobacter in chicken sheds at Faccenda were regularly ignored by workers when he was employed there. Faccenda says this is not true and it has invested heavily in a highly trained and motivated workforce.
    Campylobacter contamination has plagued the poultry industry for more than a decade and has got worse in that time.

    Anyway - I think American Foods should be way down on your list.









    No-one is content with breaches of food safety, however your post isn't logical, a bit like blaming the government or police for everyone who breaks the law.

    You highlight two companies in breach of health and safety standards, hardly the fault of the EU, you could point the finger at our own government if you wish, because they have cut the number of inspectors who can check on standards

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    You are joking of course! There was so much crap food being imported from Europe, that after it stayed on the shelves for a long time, stockists were forced to label British home grown foods so that the British would buy it.

    I do not like American foods - they don't even have to label it as such because it is easy to spot.But even so - you go on protesting about American foods when Tesco were found to be selling horsemeat in their burgers that originated from Ireland - er, the EU's Republic of Ireland, that is.
    Is that a fact? Have you ever seen raw US meat for sale in a British store? Or for that matter, have you ever seen raw US meat for sale anywhere? I can assure you that it's indistinguishable from either its British or Canadian equivalent.


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  14. #38
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    "…In the meantime, you will recall the recent row as to how stories such as the wave machine and so on were making it into the public domain, which took in conspiracy theories such as the notion that Patel’s long-suffering civil servants were having grotesquely terrible ideas on purpose, to make her look stupid."

  15. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandGroundZero View Post

    "…In the meantime, you will recall the recent row as to how stories such as the wave machine and so on were making it into the public domain, which took in conspiracy theories such as the notion that Patel’s long-suffering civil servants were having grotesquely terrible ideas on purpose, to make her look stupid."
    "May’s post-career commentary is certainly becoming far more entertaining than her playing days ever were – rather like her idol Geoffrey Boycott."

    Love that. Still laughing at Friday's 'Game of Thrones' column.

    Crace was good yesterday. Not as funny as Hyde, but still cutting:

    Mikey’s own insistence from four years ago that a deal between the EU and the UK would be “the easiest in human history” and that “the UK held all the cards”. It was just unfortunate they were are all twos and threes.

    It's almost as though one-time Labour party member Gove, who was turned down for a job with the Tories for not being political enough, doesn't give a monkey's about politics, as long as he's in the thick of it, so to speak.

  16. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    "May’s post-career commentary is certainly becoming far more entertaining than her playing days ever were – rather like her idol Geoffrey Boycott."

    Love that. Still laughing at Friday's 'Game of Thrones' column.

    Crace was good yesterday. Not as funny as Hyde, but still cutting:

    Mikey’s own insistence from four years ago that a deal between the EU and the UK would be “the easiest in human history” and that “the UK held all the cards”. It was just unfortunate they were are all twos and threes.

    It's almost as though one-time Labour party member Gove, who was turned down for a job with the Tories for not being political enough, doesn't give a monkey's about politics, as long as he's in the thick of it, so to speak.
    In fact, the roots of our European ambivalence go even deeper. We often hear now how the European Union is the guarantor of peace on the Continent, a necessary construct to prevent a descent into barbarity. Yet the postwar generation of British political leaders didn’t quite see things like that. Winston Churchill supported a United States of Europe, albeit with Britain an ally outside it. Clement Attlee opposed the Treaty of Rome, saying it was “not our way.” Anthony Eden, a distinguished peacemaker as foreign secretary (although rather less successful in the top job) argued that joining a federation of Europe was “something which we know, in our bones, we cannot do.” It was Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson who offered Britain’s first referendum on the European question, arguably to resolve his own party-management issues, yet he failed to persuade his own wife to vote in favor. That referendum, which Wilson won, didn’t settle the question either, and less than a decade later Blair was first elected as a member of Parliament on a Labour manifesto promising“withdrawal from the Community.”

    As the historian Julian Jackson’s biography richly depicts, Charles de Gaulle was scarred by his bitter wartime rows with Winston Churchill, when he was told by the British prime minister, “You must know that when we have to choose between Europe and the open seas, we will always be with the open seas.” Therein lies the heart of Brexit. The Atlantic

  17. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    Winston Churchill supported a United States of Europe....Clement Attlee opposed the Treaty of Rome....Anthony Eden, argued, etc.
    Back in their^day, the UK did much less trade with Europe. By comparison, trade with our historically traditional markets i.e. British overseas possessions/commonwealth countries had always been and still was more significant.

    The world is a whole different place now. We no longer build the majority of the worlds ships and locomotives, or supply the world with cloth from our mills, or even export coal and steel, etc. Former colonies/markets like India have moved on and gone their own way. Meanwhile, forty years of trade with our European partners has seen strong and lasting ties formed.

    The futile attempt to turn back the clock via Brexit, to how things were post 1945 is never going to work out well. This country, sad to say, has been well and truly led up the garden path!
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  19. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by The PNP View Post

    This country, sad to say, has been well and truly led up the garden path!
    Would that be pushing your bike or riding it

  20. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    In fact, the roots of our European ambivalence go even deeper. We often hear now how the European Union is the guarantor of peace on the Continent, a necessary construct to prevent a descent into barbarity. Yet the postwar generation of British political leaders didn’t quite see things like that. Winston Churchill supported a United States of Europe, albeit with Britain an ally outside it. Clement Attlee opposed the Treaty of Rome, saying it was “not our way.” Anthony Eden, a distinguished peacemaker as foreign secretary (although rather less successful in the top job) argued that joining a federation of Europe was “something which we know, in our bones, we cannot do.” It was Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson who offered Britain’s first referendum on the European question, arguably to resolve his own party-management issues, yet he failed to persuade his own wife to vote in favor. That referendum, which Wilson won, didn’t settle the question either, and less than a decade later Blair was first elected as a member of Parliament on a Labour manifesto promising“withdrawal from the Community.”

    As the historian Julian Jackson’s biography richly depicts, Charles de Gaulle was scarred by his bitter wartime rows with Winston Churchill, when he was told by the British prime minister, “You must know that when we have to choose between Europe and the open seas, we will always be with the open seas.” Therein lies the heart of Brexit. The Atlantic
    Hate to tell you this, but the year is 2020, the Great British Empire is no more, the British Commonwealth is now just the Commonwealth, the days you yearn for are long gone and have no relevance to the situation today.

    Sure at one time the bulk of our trade was very much with the old British Commonwealth countries, the UK was a major manufacturing country supplying products across the world and bringing in raw materials from the colonies, those colonial countries are now fully independent and certainly look to their own trading position to their own benefit.

    The clocks go back one hour this weekend, NOT 70 years.

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  22. #44
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    In fact, the roots of our European ambivalence go even deeper. We often hear now how the European Union is the guarantor of peace on the Continent, a necessary construct to prevent a descent into barbarity. Yet the postwar generation of British political leaders didn’t quite see things like that. Winston Churchill supported a United States of Europe, albeit with Britain an ally outside it. Clement Attlee opposed the Treaty of Rome, saying it was “not our way.” Anthony Eden, a distinguished peacemaker as foreign secretary (although rather less successful in the top job) argued that joining a federation of Europe was “something which we know, in our bones, we cannot do.” It was Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson who offered Britain’s first referendum on the European question, arguably to resolve his own party-management issues, yet he failed to persuade his own wife to vote in favor. That referendum, which Wilson won, didn’t settle the question either, and less than a decade later Blair was first elected as a member of Parliament on a Labour manifesto promising “withdrawal from the Community.”

    As the historian Julian Jackson’s biography richly depicts, Charles de Gaulle was scarred by his bitter wartime rows with Winston Churchill, when he was told by the British prime minister, “You must know that when we have to choose between Europe and the open seas, we will always be with the open seas.” Therein lies the heart of Brexit. When Britain sought to join the European Community, a precursor to the EU, in 1963, de Gaulle vetoed its application. Perhaps he was ultimately right to doubt Britain’s commitment.
    Typical. Copy & paste without full attribution or link.
    For those interested in reading the whole article, follow the link.

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  24. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by silver fox View Post
    Hate to tell you this, but the year is 2020, the Great British Empire is no more, the British Commonwealth is now just the Commonwealth, the days you yearn for are long gone and have no relevance to the situation today.

    Sure at one time the bulk of our trade was very much with the old British Commonwealth countries, the UK was a major manufacturing country supplying products across the world and bringing in raw materials from the colonies, those colonial countries are now fully independent and certainly look to their own trading position to their own benefit.

    The clocks go back one hour this weekend, NOT 70 years.
    Yes, there's a lot of harking back, nothing of our present predicament or our future position.

    Regardless of the claims it is 'fundamentally specious', it's a fact that Brexit was favoured by the over 60s. And those less educated. Mostly a combination of both, I'd wager. I'd also wager that UKIP had more or less exactly the same demographic. Older and not the sharpest tools in the box. According to all of the polling sites, anyway.

    So it seems that those whose future isn't exactly long term took a choice away from those who will actually live through it.

    Playing Devil's Advocate, it also has to be said that the old fools actually turned out to vote, so determined were they that Nigel Farage was right and the EU was just trying to imprison us all and stop us from buying cheap salmon from the Faroe Islands. Whereas many of the youngsters and remain camp simply didn't bother voting, either through laziness or the belief that shooting ourselves in the foot would be deranged.

    The same old fools will be delighted when Al Kemal either says the EU were just unreasonable and wouldn't give us the same benefits of membership without paying in. So no deal.

    Or waves a turd sprinkled with 3 sequins and says 'behold - The Deal'. Cue all the sycophants claiming 'we had faith in Boris'.

    I guarantee it will be a Pyrrhic victory, either way. Nobody will come out of this better off, unless your aim is an unregulated tax haven or paying twice as much for food next year than we did this year.

    But hey - 'sovrinty'.

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