southport, Local Online News Community, Forums, Chats, For Sale, Classified, Offers, Film Reviews, Events, Motors Sale, Property For Sale Rent, Jobs, Hotels, Taxi, Restaurants, Pubs, Clubs, Pictures, Sports, Charities, Lost Found
FirstFirst ... ... LastLast
Results 226 to 240 of 501

Thread: Capitol Chaos

  1. #226
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    6,849
    Likes / Dislikes
    Quote Originally Posted by local View Post
    When I sit on the same fence as Washingtons ex prosecutor I don't feel I have the position too wrong.

    With the massed ranks of Southport Q Locals relentlessly wrong posters opposing my position, I don't feel to uncomfortable

    I look back at their crazy predictions and can't help but


    Don’t think anyone is making too many predictions, but the reasons for the impeachment are most definitely there, as to the outcome, there are many factors in play, the ultimate decision will reflect more on how various people feel that their political position will be affected.

    Emphasising on the 6th Jan speech alone is not the full story by a long way, there are now 2 known highly illegal attempts to overturn the election result, both originating from Trump, both attempting to force officials into illegal action, as for the outcome we will have to wait and see.

  2. Likes Toodles McGinty liked this post




  3. Check Todays Deals on Ebay.co.uk      Check Todays Deals On Amazon.co.uk
  4. #227
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    4,502
    Likes / Dislikes

    Arrow …sedition? or just a Tea Party?

    …Indeed, the debate over whether to accept the outcome of a presidential election was only happening at the Capitol because a faction of the Republican Party had already embraced the same grievances as the rioters.

    In The Atlantic, Tom Nichols dubbed this faction of lawmakers the “sedition caucus.” It lost on January 6, but its members are not going away. The question is what form their persistence will take. Are they the Republican Party’s future, or will they have to find a new home—perhaps in the Patriot Party or MAGA Party that Donald Trump reportedly wants to found?

    Because the sedition caucus is embedded within the GOP, other Republicans are the only ones in a position to rein the group in. So far, many who opposed the election challenge and want to hold their party together are making an effort to restore constitutional norms. Others are still trying to play both sides. The reason so many are worried about the divisiveness of impeachment is not that it will divide the country, but that it will divide the Republican Party. It will force Republicans to go on record opposing some of their own. As the former GOP strategist Stephen Schmidt writes, that could lead today’s Republican Party down the path the Whig Party took two centuries ago, when it fractured over slavery.

    The post-Trump GOP … Hans Noel, associate professor of government at Georgetown University.
    An extract from The Atlantic speculating on the next moves for the GOP.
    [Aside: Q Local Southport forum has its very own “sedition” poster — ]


    In case anyone is interested, the article makes some general points about for instance: FPTP; voter enfranchisement; group dynamics of 'big tent ' political parties which of course, have some resonance here in the UK.


    Neither party’s institutions are well equipped to prevent factions from invading. Party leaders do have ways of managing conflict and avoiding nominees out of step with their values, but …

  5. #228
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Tiny, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    8,259
    Likes / Dislikes
    Quote Originally Posted by local
    I sit with other simpletons such as Jeffrey Scott Shapiro the ex Washington state prosecutor who also doesn't think the Trump charge is valid.
    Don't be so hard on yourself. You sit with those who omit one teensy-weensy distinction between criminal law vs impeachment.

    Shapiro's statement is correct. In criminal law Trump's actions would not constitute a criminal offence. However impeachment is a political process and presidential actions don't have to be criminal to be impeachable. If a House majority and 2/3 of the Senate believe that Trump has violated his oath of office, then he will be found guilty of high crimes and misdemeanours.

    You can read the full article of impeachment here:

    https://cicilline.house.gov/sites/ci...-%20011121.pdf

  6. Likes The PNP liked this post
  7. #229
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    4,502
    Likes / Dislikes

    Arrow re: "Don't be so hard on yourself."

    As I recall, Shapiro's WSJ article cited a precedent [Brandenburg v. Ohio] — the so-called 'Brandenburg test for incitement' — a startling decision, in itself.

    As for Mr. Shapiro, braggadocio:
    As a Washington prosecutor I earned the nickname “protester prosecutor” …
    His CV: mostly, hack journalist who also practised a bit of law; partisan gadabout and media commentator.
    In short, local's kind of guy .

  8. Likes Toodles McGinty, silver fox, The PNP liked this post
  9. #230
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    12,653
    Likes / Dislikes
    Quote Originally Posted by seivad View Post
    Don't be so hard on yourself. You sit with those who omit one teensy-weensy distinction between criminal law vs impeachment.

    Shapiro's statement is correct. In criminal law Trump's actions would not constitute a criminal offence. However impeachment is a political process and presidential actions don't have to be criminal to be impeachable. If a House majority and 2/3 of the Senate believe that Trump has violated his oath of office, then he will be found guilty of high crimes and misdemeanours.

    You can read the full article of impeachment here:

    https://cicilline.house.gov/sites/ci...-%20011121.pdf


    I'm sitting very comfortably when I assess the charge and come to the same conclusion as Shapiro,as to the politics I have already mentioned that Pelosi has conned quite a few gullible people into supporting it.


    I have though seen a distinct change in mood to a wish to include Trumps back catalogue to make the charge stick.

    You can of course take my challenge from the transcript link and point out where and indeed how he incited the crowd to do what they did.


    Should I expect to be ignored or the challenge swerved?

    Should someone be found guilty of offending opposing politicians is perhaps the bigger question, to some extent it will be part of the job and one of the things Trump was very good at.

  10. #231
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    6,849
    Likes / Dislikes
    Quote Originally Posted by local View Post
    I'm sitting very comfortably when I assess the charge and come to the same conclusion as Shapiro,as to the politics I have already mentioned that Pelosi has conned quite a few gullible people into supporting it.


    I have though seen a distinct change in mood to a wish to include Trumps back catalogue to make the charge stick.

    You can of course take my challenge from the transcript link and point out where and indeed how he incited the crowd to do what they did.


    Should I expect to be ignored or the challenge swerved?

    Should someone be found guilty of offending opposing politicians is perhaps the bigger question, to some extent it will be part of the job and one of the things Trump was very good at.
    Give over, Trump’s speech was the trigger and you know it, no-one could achieve that result from just one speech, he was urging on the already converted and primed mugs, all those who believed that they could somehow change the result of the election.

    Trump played to the lowest denominator, just as incidentally did your other hero, Farage.

  11. Likes The PNP liked this post
  12. #232
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Over the hills and far away.
    Posts
    8,350
    Likes / Dislikes
    Quote Originally Posted by silver fox View Post
    Give over, Trump’s speech was the trigger and you know it, no-one could achieve that result from just one speech, he was urging on the already converted and primed mugs, all those who believed that they could somehow change the result of the election.

    Trump played to the lowest denominator, just as incidentally did your other hero, Farage.
    Jeez, if Farage is anyone's hero, I've some lovely magic beans to sell.

    Again, referring back to the Trump documentary, he's a toadying little arselicker. He grovels and ingratiates himself around those he sees as powerful. I think Trump was his favourite thick populist, but any will do.

    A rabble rouser preying on fools. Again the image of a short kid dancing round and issuing threats while hiding behind the big bully comes to mind. Happily the world eventually corrects itself after these fascist or populist phases. He'll end up shouting into the void on one of the new ultra-right TV services, no doubt. GBTV or some such.

  13. #233
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    12,653
    Likes / Dislikes

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by silver fox View Post
    Give over, Trump’s speech was the trigger and you know it, no-one could achieve that result from just one speech, he was urging on the already converted and primed mugs, all those who believed that they could somehow change the result of the election.

    Trump played to the lowest denominator, just as incidentally did your other hero, Farage.

    Didn't know farage was my hero.

    I do like the gentle swerve onto my point that the speech did not incite.
    The new cumulative incitement position has it seems another supporter.
    Better get Nancy to organise a rewrite

  14. #234
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    4,143
    Likes / Dislikes
    Once again
    It wasn't just that speech. There was a trail of incitement.
    But when that crowd turned up, it was pretty much certain what they would do.
    Did he moderate? Did he f!
    When they set about what they were doing, which included some wanting to murder his VP, what did he do?
    NOTHING
    Your argument just doesn't stand up

  15. Likes The PNP liked this post
  16. #235
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    12,653
    Likes / Dislikes
    Quote Originally Posted by bensherman View Post
    Once again
    It wasn't just that speech. There was a trail of incitement.
    But when that crowd turned up, it was pretty much certain what they would do.
    Did he moderate? Did he f!
    When they set about what they were doing, which included some wanting to murder his VP, what did he do?
    NOTHING
    Your argument just doesn't stand up


    Steady on your nearly agreeing with me.

    You are as others are building a cumulative incitement argument as the speech on the day didn't cut the mustard (my point all along)

    Call Nancy they might reword the impeachment for you

    Don't forget as i have already mentioned he has a first amendment defence in his right to free speech or to say things you don't agree with.

    Saying I was robbed and fight it seems to neatly fit.



    Wherefore, Donald John Trump, by such conduct, has demonstrated that he will remain a threat to national security, democracy, and the Constitution if allowed to remain in office, and has acted in a manner grossly incompatible with self-governance and the rule of law. Donald John Trump thus warrants impeachment and trial, removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.




    https://www.npr.org/sections/trump-i...=1611742601892



    The reality is Nancy and her cohorts are looking to stop the Trump.

  17. #236
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    6,849
    Likes / Dislikes
    Quote Originally Posted by local View Post
    Steady on your nearly agreeing with me.

    You are as others are building a cumulative incitement argument as the speech on the day didn't cut the mustard (my point all along)

    Call Nancy they might reword the impeachment for you

    Don't forget as i have already mentioned he has a first amendment defence in his right to free speech or to say things you don't agree with.

    Saying I was robbed and fight it seems to neatly fit.



    Wherefore, Donald John Trump, by such conduct, has demonstrated that he will remain a threat to national security, democracy, and the Constitution if allowed to remain in office, and has acted in a manner grossly incompatible with self-governance and the rule of law. Donald John Trump thus warrants impeachment and trial, removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.




    https://www.npr.org/sections/trump-i...=1611742601892



    The reality is Nancy and her cohorts are looking to stop the Trump.
    The reality is that many from both sides want Trump stopped, the problem for Republicans is in that while they may want Trump out, they are also frightened of upsetting the MAGA extremist factions, I’m afraid the final decision will be based on politics rather than illegality.

  18. #237
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    4,502
    Likes / Dislikes

    Trump’s Coup Attempt Didn’t Start on January 6

    "The attempted coup reshaped the debate over then-President Donald Trump’s attempts to steal the 2020 presidential election, focusing both opponents and defenders on the insurrection itself and what role he played in inciting it. …

    …But that narrow focus on the insurrection has also allowed some of Trump’s defenders to derail the conversation by debating whether Trump was culpable for the actions of the mob on January 6. Letting him off on this count requires ignoring not only his speech that day, but also his weeks of telling people the election was being stolen from him; if that had been true, they might have been acting rationally in storming the Capitol, but he was lying to them all the while. As the Clark gambit illustrates, Trump’s speech to the mob was just one of many improper and illegal efforts to retain power. Trump’s attempt to overturn the election was amateurish and poorly thought-out, like most of his initiatives, but it was also sprawling, dangerous, and unacceptable.
    " — David A. Graham at The Atlantic

  19. Likes Toodles McGinty, silver fox liked this post
  20. #238
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    12,653
    Likes / Dislikes
    Quote Originally Posted by sandGroundZero View Post
    "The attempted coup reshaped the debate over then-President Donald Trump’s attempts to steal the 2020 presidential election, focusing both opponents and defenders on the insurrection itself and what role he played in inciting it. …

    …But that narrow focus on the insurrection has also allowed some of Trump’s defenders to derail the conversation by debating whether Trump was culpable for the actions of the mob on January 6. Letting him off on this count requires ignoring not only his speech that day, but also his weeks of telling people the election was being stolen from him; if that had been true, they might have been acting rationally in storming the Capitol, but he was lying to them all the while. As the Clark gambit illustrates, Trump’s speech to the mob was just one of many improper and illegal efforts to retain power. Trump’s attempt to overturn the election was amateurish and poorly thought-out, like most of his initiatives, but it was also sprawling, dangerous, and unacceptable.
    " — David A. Graham at The Atlantic


    Trump was as objectionable on the day he announced he would run as the day he was elected, to the day he went off to play golf.

    That's who the Americans chose after Obama's failure and faced with him or Hillary.

    Why you would seek to have him impeached for being what the American people voted for defeats me.

    The consensus that "the speech" was not in itself enough to support the charge is welcome.

    The Americans got exactly what they voted for.

    A vomit inducer.

  21. #239
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    4,502
    Likes / Dislikes

    Arrow In response to local's post #238

    As candidate and as President, Donald Trump broke laws, violated conventional norms of behaviour and most deplorably he exploited racial hatred and stoked division to assist in his Presidential bids.
    Trump was as objectionable on the day he announced he would run as the day he was elected, to the day he went off to play golf. | That's who the Americans chose after Obama's failure and faced with him or Hillary. | Why you would seek to have him impeached for being what the American people voted for defeats me.
    The consensus that "the speech" was not in itself enough to support the charge is welcome.
    The Americans got exactly what they voted for. | A vomit inducer.
    post #238
    If Obama was a "failure", Trump was a national calamity. You, local, have repeatedly called him "objectionable, a vomit inducer, emetic" and other derogatory epithets; yet you puke up excuses for Trump along with juvenile taunts aimed at his detractors.

    Americans may have voted for Trump, and it is Americans who are seeking his second impeachment. On the face of it, it makes little difference to any of us residing in Southport whether Trump is impeached and barred from further participation, or not; except of course, that it matters to us America chooses to set a positive example to the world and contribute constructively in international affairs.

    And one other thing: it matters to us that we have our own celebrity clown residing in 10 Downing Street who, with his BREXIT sidekicks, appear to share Trump's laissez passer attitude to Russian meddling in our political affairs — something that seems not to have troubled you.



  22. Likes Toodles McGinty liked this post
  23. #240
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    12,653
    Likes / Dislikes
    Quote Originally Posted by sandGroundZero View Post
    As candidate and as President, Donald Trump broke laws, violated conventional norms of behaviour and most deplorably he exploited racial hatred and stoked division to assist in his Presidential bids.
    If Obama was a "failure", Trump was a national calamity. You, local, have repeatedly called him "objectionable, a vomit inducer, emetic" and other derogatory epithets; yet you puke up excuses for Trump along with juvenile taunts aimed at his detractors.

    Americans may have voted for Trump, and it is Americans who are seeking his second impeachment. On the face of it, it makes little difference to any of us residing in Southport whether Trump is impeached and barred from further participation, or not; except of course, that it matters to us America chooses to set a positive example to the world and contribute constructively in international affairs.

    And one other thing: it matters to us that we have our own celebrity clown residing in 10 Downing Street who, with his BREXIT sidekicks, appear to share Trump's laissez passer attitude to Russian meddling in our political affairs — something that seems not to have troubled you.




    America made its choices so did we Boris or Jeremy, there was no contest and the vote was overwhelming you will have to learn to see the bigger picture and not take your frustrations out on those of us who see it.

    Calling my correct and objective observations of Trumps excuses is just another shallow and thoughtless jibe.

    I haven't excused him just not followed sheep like his barmy army of orange misters who are obsessed with him.

FirstFirst ... ... LastLast
Custom Search


Search Qlocal (powered by google)
You are in: UK / Southport / North West
Find any Town in the UK, or Use UK map
Local Google MAP for Southport

User Control Panel

Not a Member? Sign Up!

Login or Register


Privacy & Cookie Policy



   Check Todays Deals On Amazon.co.uk
   Check Todays Deals on Ebay.co.uk

Also website at southportnews.co.uk

Southport Music & Piano Academy


Qlocal Supports Woodlands Animal Sanctuary

Woodlands Animal Sanctuary Charity

Booking.com

Firewood suppliers in southport
Replacement Stove Glass in southport
Supporting Local Business
Supporting Local Business
Be Seen - Advertise on Qlocal






UK, Local Online News Community, Forums, Chats, For Sale, Classified, Offers, Vouchers, Events, Motors Sale, Property For Sale Rent, Jobs, Hotels, Taxi, Restaurants, Pubs, Clubs, Pictures, Sports, Charities, Lost Found
southportsouthport News


Supporting Local Business
178 Bispham Road, Southport, PR9 7DF
Although mainly catering for the family cyclist, our business encompasses all aspects of cycling.
WEBSITE     TEL: 01704 228805
Supporting Local Business
127 Wennington Road, SOUTHPORT, PR9 7AH
Our team of Veterinary Surgeons, trainee and qualified Veterinary Nurses and Receptionists aim to provide the highest possible standard of a personal, caring and friendly service.
WEBSITE     TEL: 01704 214460

Supporting Local Business
Rimmer Scaffolding, 11 Guildford Road, Southport, PR8 4JU
For a professional, cost-effective scaffolding service, Rimmer Scaffolding are the local specialists who remember that safety comes first and who don't cut corners.
WEBSITE     TEL: 01704 550859
Supporting Local Business
Heritage Houset, 9b Hoghton St, Southport, PR9 0TE
All your business insurance needs under one roof! Car, motor, home, taxi, fleets, shops, offices Best cover found at lowest prices! Free quotations provided.
WEBSITE     TEL: 01704 631913


Stats: Qlocal over 500,000 page views a month (google analytics)