Following the Science?

[seivad]

This is definitely a worry.

I'm reading that in France and all over the US, Covid is hitting young people much harder than it did. From CNN.

As you say, H, if the oldies are immune, it will target the young and mutate into a variation to hit them harder. It exists to reproduce and infect. I believe that in the 1918 pandemic, the virus mutated to do just that. The JCVI scientists are talking openly about "young people will die" from the South African variant.

This isn't over by a long way. Personally I'm going to continue to take every precaution for the foreseeable.

96% of Covid cases in the county we live in are variants. The UK variant is still the dominant one here, but the Brazilian variant is starting to take off now. It's already spreading like wildfire in Southern Ontario and British Columbia. Hospitals are seeing whole families admitted to ICU. This variant spreads so much faster and also kills the young.

It's so bad in Toronto they have no free ICU beds. They are sending patients to hospitals outside the Greater Toronto area. They're setting up field hospitals wherever they can. Even our tiny little hospital has received Covid patients from Toronto. People are getting really scared. Despite Ontario being under a stay home order, cases are up 36% from the previous week.

The problem is, none of the vaccines give us immunity, they just lessen the chance of contracting severe Covid and death. I also think the jury's still out on the efficacy of any of the current vaccines against the Brazil variant. I am still double masking and showering in sanitizer before I run the grocery gauntlet! I swear we are never going to be rid of this damned thing.

[Hamble]

96% of Covid cases in the county we live in are variants. The UK variant is still the dominant one here, but the Brazilian variant is starting to take off now. It's already spreading like wildfire in Southern Ontario and British Columbia. Hospitals are seeing whole families admitted to ICU. This variant spreads so much faster and also kills the young.

It's so bad in Toronto they have no free ICU beds. They are sending patients to hospitals outside the Greater Toronto area. They're setting up field hospitals wherever they can. Even our tiny little hospital has received Covid patients from Toronto. People are getting really scared. Despite Ontario being under a stay home order, cases are up 36% from the previous week.

The problem is, none of the vaccines give us immunity, they just lessen the chance of contracting severe Covid and death. I also think the jury's still out on the efficacy of any of the current vaccines against the Brazil variant. I am still double masking and showering in sanitizer before I run the grocery gauntlet! I swear we are never going to be rid of this damned thing.

Definitely the biggest event to force the way we live for the next decade.

[said]

Despite my limited knowledge of this

Here's a pretty picture for you.

If your knowledge is so comprehensive, then why are you still believing everything the media is telling you. You do not need extensive knowledge, basic GCSE science tells you all you need to know.

So, you are now claiming to be a Biologist at the very least, is that right? Indeed, Koch did make an error, which he had to admit - but just as the media use logical fallacies in order to prove a point - you are doing the same. Using the same old chestnut as you say. The Robert Koch Institute is a very highly respected research establishment.

No they have not isolated the virus. It was reported in April last year that virologists had supposedly purified the virus from an infected Korean woman, but I have been unable to find this report again. As far as I can remember, this method presented a virus genome from an infected cell. There lies the problem, for once a virus has infected a cell, it can and does mutate by changing its genome - so even if an infected cell could be found it cannot be stated that the genome is most definitely that of the virus. In addition, the human body contains millions of different viruses, of which at any one time some can be active while others benign. The human body also contains exosomes of its own which can resemble viruses.

From the Canadian experiment - "Researchers confirm the source of infection by extracting genetic material from the virus in culture and sequencing its genome.
They compare the sequence to known coronavirus sequences to identify it precisely. Once a culture is confirmed, researchers can make copies to share with colleagues."

Virologists are unable to compare the sequences with known coronaviruses to identify it precisely - simply because Covid 19 is a new disease and would not have any standard to measure by - they were supposed to be finding one. Yes, I do know how viruses are purified, thank you.

Pretty picture?? They are all pretty pictures because they are artistic works, they are not factual. There is no technology available on Earth that can photograph any so microscopic as a virus. The smallest 'observed' particle is created with mathematical modelling and even then can only measure 500nm - a virus is just 20nm

This site will tell you just how this Pandemic began:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6nLfCbAzgo


This will also inform you that no-one has yet proved that the Measles virus exists either, this is the result of a Court Hearing in Germany:
https://lrbw.juris.de/cgi-bin/laende...05&pos=0&anz=1

[Toodles McGinty]

96% of Covid cases in the county we live in are variants. The UK variant is still the dominant one here, but the Brazilian variant is starting to take off now. It's already spreading like wildfire in Southern Ontario and British Columbia. Hospitals are seeing whole families admitted to ICU. This variant spreads so much faster and also kills the young.

It's so bad in Toronto they have no free ICU beds. They are sending patients to hospitals outside the Greater Toronto area. They're setting up field hospitals wherever they can. Even our tiny little hospital has received Covid patients from Toronto. People are getting really scared. Despite Ontario being under a stay home order, cases are up 36% from the previous week.

The problem is, none of the vaccines give us immunity, they just lessen the chance of contracting severe Covid and death. I also think the jury's still out on the efficacy of any of the current vaccines against the Brazil variant. I am still double masking and showering in sanitizer before I run the grocery gauntlet! I swear we are never going to be rid of this damned thing.

That's terrifying. I was reading yesterday how Canada is struggling. All the news seems to be about India and Brazil.

I can see us locking down again in the summer. The new variants are spreading and we still haven't got control of who is coming in and out of the country. As has been pointed out, India isn't on the 'red list' as the PM is due to go to ask for a trade deal. I think he's desperate to get in before India-EU talks resume on the 29th. But Pakistan is on the red list with fewer cases. Just doesn't make sense. And apparently we've 'lost' 150,000 tourists since border controls started 7 weeks ago. Some from red list countries.

The South African variant is spreading in London, and several of those infected had received at least one shot of either the AstraZeneca or Pfizer vaccine, suggesting the variant may have been able to resist vaccine protection .

There's also the possibility of a big rise in infection when students are fully back at uni. There's been a slight rise already, and all pretence of social distancing has gone out of the window. I wear a mask outdoors wherever I go. This drew a few remarks when I passed the 'clientele' outside a local hostelry this week. The very definition of 'Covidiots'.

So I'm erring on the side of caution. At least for a while. Should the vaccines prove useless against the new variants, I can see us in a real mess soon.

[Hector]

Seivad and Toodles:

You are both panicking too much.

The vaccines will not make you Superwoman with total immunity.

You may still get infected as you get colds and flu from time to time, despite having had colds and flu before and perhaps even having had a flu shot or two.

But you will not be hospitalised or get seriously sick provided you eat your greens, take your vitamin D and don't overdo the fags and G &Ts.

[Toodles McGinty]

Seivad and Toodles:

You are both panicking too much.

The vaccines will not make you Superwoman with total immunity.

You may still get infected as you get colds and flu from time to time, despite having had colds and flu before and perhaps even having had a flu shot or two.

But you will not be hospitalised or get seriously sick provided you eat your greens, take your vitamin D and don't overdo the fags and G &Ts.

I'm not panicking. Not at all. I'm taking sensible precautions, and I'll continue to do so after I've had my second jab. And the jab after that. And the jab after that. A pandemic was inevitable. No point in panic. I'm prepared for any eventuality.

I'll no more expect greens and vitamin D to protect me against Covid than I expect them to have protected me against Measles, TB, or any of the other vaccines I've had against viruses since being a baby.

Covid isn't the common cold, or the flu. Though I do expect that if people continue to follow sensible precautions, there will be a lot less of both colds and flu around. I'm a 2 or 3 colds a year woman. I've had none for a year. Nobody I know has had a cold either. The makers of Lemsip might be sweating a bit though.

I do agree that cabbage and sunshine are good for everyone, but they don't stand up to a virus that's killed millions. But I do hope you're right, of course. They certainly won't harm us, will they?

[Hector]

Yes, it definitely isn't the common cold or flu but we can develop a degree of immunity to them and we can develop a degree of immunity to Covid.

As Whittey said recently, the situation in the UK will, assuming people continue to get vaccinated, be like dealing with the flu.

Let's hope the boffins continue to do their bit with new vaccines and also more anti-virals. That's something I encourage every young clinical pharamacist I meet to get cracking with.

[seivad]

Seivad and Toodles:

You are both panicking too much.

The vaccines will not make you Superwoman with total immunity.

You may still get infected as you get colds and flu from time to time, despite having had colds and flu before and perhaps even having had a flu shot or two.

But you will not be hospitalised or get seriously sick provided you eat your greens, take your vitamin D and don't overdo the fags and G &Ts.

Wot Toodles said!

[seivad]

your knowledge is so comprehensive, then why are you still believing everything the media is telling you. You do not need extensive knowledge, basic GCSE science tells you all you need to know.

Same old, same old claim that everyone's information comes from the media, therefore it's fake news. Very odd considering that's where most of your information comes from, along with Wikipedia.... you know, the site where the world and his wife can contribute their 'facts'.

My C&P wasn't from the media. It was plucked from the McMaster University Site. Are medical research reports direct from University's research departments now considered to be fake media? I guarantee you that their researcher's education and experience extends a lot further than GCSE level.

So, you are now claiming to be a Biologist at the very least, is that right? Indeed, Koch did make an error, which he had to admit - but just as the media use logical fallacies in order to prove a point - you are doing the same. Using the same old chestnut as you say. The Robert Koch Institute is a very highly respected research establishment.

Does my saying I have very limited knowledge denote that I think I'm a biologist? I'm a pretty good fact checker, and this wasn't the first time I had read claims that as SARS-CoV-2 didn't meet Koch's postulates, it isn't a virus. This claim has been debunked countless times by people who are microbiologists. And the theory that his postulates are still relevant has met with the same reaction.

No they have not isolated the virus. It was reported in April last year that virologists had supposedly purified the virus from an infected Korean woman, but I have been unable to find this report again. As far as I can remember, this method presented a virus genome from an infected cell. There lies the problem, for once a virus has infected a cell, it can and does mutate by changing its genome - so even if an infected cell could be found it cannot be stated that the genome is most definitely that of the virus. In addition, the human body contains millions of different viruses, of which at any one time some can be active while others benign. The human body also contains exosomes of its own which can resemble viruses.

It's been isolated countless times. China was the first country to isolate the virus in January 2020. Other countries followed as and when Covid reached their shores. I give up. You stick with your belief and I'll stick with the truth.

From the Canadian experiment - "Researchers confirm the source of infection by extracting genetic material from the virus in culture and sequencing its genome.
They compare the sequence to known coronavirus sequences to identify it precisely. Once a culture is confirmed, researchers can make copies to share with colleagues."

Virologists are unable to compare the sequences with known coronaviruses to identify it precisely - simply because Covid 19 is a new disease and would not have any standard to measure by - they were supposed to be finding one. Yes, I do know how viruses are purified, thank you.

Genome sequencing has been going on since China shared theirs with the world on Jan. 12th, 2020. Countries all over the world have been sequencing from their PCR tests ever since then. How on earth do you think they identify what is circulating in the population? There are numerous current data banks available to all interested parties. As I pointed out quite some time ago, your country is a leader in this field. The UK sequences 10% of its PCR tests, which is phenomenal. The last I heard, about 2/3 of the world's sequencing is held in a UK data bank.

Pretty picture?? They are all pretty pictures because they are artistic works, they are not factual. There is no technology available on Earth that can photograph any so microscopic as a virus. The smallest 'observed' particle is created with mathematical modelling and even then can only measure 500nm - a virus is just 20nm

Well within the range of a transmission electron microscope then. They are so powerful they can see things as small as 1nm. Note that on the pretty picture's caption, a transmission electron microscope was used.

You might be interested to know that Dr. Robert Koch became aware during his studies of smallpox and measles that they weren't bacteria, but he had no idea what these tiny pathogens might be. They were both identified as viruses much later on.

Around the turn of the century the existence of viruses came into play. Studies of diseases found in animals revealed that diseases, such as foot and mouth, were still infectious even after being sanitized with a bacterial filter. The answer seemed to be obvious, the pathogen was so tiny it slipped right through the microbe filter. Two former students of Koch put two and two together and made the assumption that the mysterious smallpox and measles pathogen also belonged to this group of tiny pathogens, and later on they were proved to be correct. Now here comes the kicker, research was limited as they couldn't see the viral pathogen. All this changed in the 1930s with the invention of the electron microscope. From that point on, virology research became the main focus of the Robert Koch Institute.

If the Koch Institute could finally see viral pathogens in the 1930s with an electron microscope, by the 21st century they had been in use for quite some time, and no doubt they had improved considerably.

This will also inform you that no-one has yet proved that the Measles virus exists either, this is the result of a Court Hearing in Germany:
https://lrbw.juris.de/cgi-bin/laende...05&pos=0&anz=1

Are you joking? The German court did not rule that the measles virus did not exist. Did you read the court report?

It's just another example of Internet + Social Media Amoeba = Desperately Uninformed Conclusion. Examples are found everywhere.... Your UV from the sun kills Covid is one, as is Koch's Postulates prove that SARS-CoV-2 isn't a virus. They have all been debunked, but there are none so blind as those who will not see. You don't know Jack!

[Hamble]

Yes, it definitely isn't the common cold or flu but we can develop a degree of immunity to them and we can develop a degree of immunity to Covid.

As Whittey said recently, the situation in the UK will, assuming people continue to get vaccinated, be like dealing with the flu.

Let's hope the boffins continue to do their bit with new vaccines and also more anti-virals. That's something I encourage every young clinical pharamacist I meet to get cracking with.

Whittey meant tweaking the vaccine as in the seasonal flu equivalent.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...-in-the-future

[silver fox]

If your knowledge is so comprehensive, then why are you still believing everything the media is telling you. You do not need extensive knowledge, basic GCSE science tells you all you need to know.

So, you are now claiming to be a Biologist at the very least, is that right? Indeed, Koch did make an error, which he had to admit - but just as the media use logical fallacies in order to prove a point - you are doing the same. Using the same old chestnut as you say. The Robert Koch Institute is a very highly respected research establishment.

No they have not isolated the virus. It was reported in April last year that virologists had supposedly purified the virus from an infected Korean woman, but I have been unable to find this report again. As far as I can remember, this method presented a virus genome from an infected cell. There lies the problem, for once a virus has infected a cell, it can and does mutate by changing its genome - so even if an infected cell could be found it cannot be stated that the genome is most definitely that of the virus. In addition, the human body contains millions of different viruses, of which at any one time some can be active while others benign. The human body also contains exosomes of its own which can resemble viruses.

From the Canadian experiment - "Researchers confirm the source of infection by extracting genetic material from the virus in culture and sequencing its genome.
They compare the sequence to known coronavirus sequences to identify it precisely. Once a culture is confirmed, researchers can make copies to share with colleagues."

Virologists are unable to compare the sequences with known coronaviruses to identify it precisely - simply because Covid 19 is a new disease and would not have any standard to measure by - they were supposed to be finding one. Yes, I do know how viruses are purified, thank you.

Pretty picture?? They are all pretty pictures because they are artistic works, they are not factual. There is no technology available on Earth that can photograph any so microscopic as a virus. The smallest 'observed' particle is created with mathematical modelling and even then can only measure 500nm - a virus is just 20nm

This site will tell you just how this Pandemic began:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6nLfCbAzgo


This will also inform you that no-one has yet proved that the Measles virus exists either, this is the result of a Court Hearing in Germany:
https://lrbw.juris.de/cgi-bin/laende...05&pos=0&anz=1

If you knew a quarter of what you claim then you would be very well informed indeed, you trot out outmoded data and research as conclusive today, of course no-one can prove that this or that virus exists , how in hell do you think that vaccines against many viruses have been produced and many are highly effective, do you think it was just a case of trial and error until one was found that worked.

As a child you would have been given numerous vaccines, which have kept you safe from many assorted maladies, of course you know better than everyone else.

Don't know about proving the existence of viruses, I would imagine proving your existence in the REAL world much more of a challenge.

[said]

My, my- such a lot of writing. Are you trying to prove something? I do not have to copy and paste - neither for myself nor my colleagues - it is only because q local posters keep bleating 'link', 'link,? Which is a clear indication of those who do so, that they are not in possession of the necessary information. I do understand the Universities work in this field, that is why I picked on that particular fact. You appear to be confused between purifying a virus and applying a test for those who have contracted it. A huge challenge for any fact checker who does not understand the first thing about biology. Koch made one mistake - for that he is villified. He was a brilliant scientist.

It is common knowledge that the Coronavirus is active only from December to March every single year. Can YOU prove any different?

Actually yes, I did read the full court papers, but I bet you did not, otherwise you would have had far more to say. The court ruled that the measles virus was not proven! That is in the fourth or fifth paragraph of those papers.

What is ridiculous is that normal, rational people believe with a passion - in a virus that travels in straight lines, is not carried on the air you breathe in through a mask, but is so heavy that it is not moved by the air outside, if it does it can only travel just over six feet? A virus which will attack people standing up but not those sitting down, a virus which reacts to loud noise, but not to silence, a virus which can tell the time of the curfews in bars, a virus that can count numbers, in groups of six you are safe, in seven or more you are not, and which also obeys government guidelines. Not bad for a microbe which is not living and which does not have a brain. Oh! Of course, that is precisely why you empathise with it! You call yourself a Fact Checker? Then do just that, check out the science. I really despair at my fellow country people - why don't they just THINK.

[Hector]

Whittey meant tweaking the vaccine as in the seasonal flu equivalent.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...-in-the-future

Yes. That's the plan. No reason for it not to work. But the big truth that it needs to be controlled globally cannot be forgotten.

[The PNP]

Yes. That's the plan. No reason for it not to work. But the big truth that it needs to be controlled globally cannot be forgotten.

That's the underlying problem. No matter what measures are in place for our population, fresh infection can be introduced from abroad.

Strict control of every arrival into UK must be done. Monitored quarantine for 14 days, with testing at start and end of that period.

[Hector]

That's the underlying problem. No matter what measures are in place for our population, fresh infection can be introduced from abroad.

Strict control of every arrival into UK must be done. Monitored quarantine for 14 days, with testing at start and end of that period.

Yes.

But also the developed world must in their own interests help the developing countries.