How should Transgender people be treated in Sports events

[said]

As the scientific world marches on it doesn't strain credulity to think that controlling people's bodies will become normalised and the necessary traits can be introduced at conception for high performers in sport and many other areas.

It is simply Eugenics reborn.

We aspire to "breed out disorders" yet recoil from breeding in.

Its got a dystopian fear attached to it but is it justified ?

It was the intention to create superior sports people with the use of unnatural enhancement using steroids. But like all drugs, once the body has become used to it, the user increases the dosage to obtain the same effect.

Eugenics have never gone away. In the 1950's,in the UK - people who exhibited mental disorders were experimented on, many were sterilised without their knowledge. More modern, and natural methods are now employed.

Inbreeding in the UK still occurred in the 1980's in parts of Scotland. It had almost died out completely in the UK, at one time it was quite prevalent creating several disabilities and deformities in offspring. Even our sovereign family have been taking insurance measures, to ensure it does not continue into future generations. It has now been re- introduced to the UK, by certain nationalities whose traditions involve arranged marriages. (Guardian)

[local]

Arranged marriages are another form of selective breeding

[said]

Arranged marriages are another form of selective breeding

I would actually pay to see a verbal competition between African people versus Liverpool people.

[local]

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[AdmiralAckbar]

If people take comfort and guidance from particular religions, that's great. As you say, we all have our own opinions and they are all valid.

My opinion has been formed mainly from documentaries, exploring certain ancient civilisations. As far as Africa is concerned, their worship was based in their ancestry and in their communities. Offerings to ancestors, that sort of thing. It particularly struck me that since the Christian missionaries converted indigenous people, homosexuality has been a crime in many African countries. Some still punishable by death. In Nigeria, Somlia, Sudan etc. In fact wherever in the world that particular 'crime' carries a death penalty, you can guarantee either Christianity or Islam is behind it.

Many indigenous people accepted and sometimes revered those they defined as 'Two Spirit'. Transgender, transexual, all varieties, basically. This was something that was just part of life until Europeans came along. Again religious intolerance has everything to do with it. And we know how the indigenous people from North to South of the Americas have been treated by Europeans. Or Australia. Or most places. Having said that, some of the South American people practised human sacrifice, so I'm not saying everything was exactly peachy. Nor am I saying these societies were perfect Utopias. But in my opinion, and in the context of this particular thread, trans people were pretty much accepted before the advent and spread of Abrahamic religions.

To be fair, if we all followed the 10 Commandments, the world would be a better place. But then people happen, and it all goes nips up.

I'd say any society that makes a deity of Prince Phillip are devil worshippers. Alien lizard worshippers at the very least.

Very interesting link (Two Spirit) and a good read... a lot of stuff in there I never knew or hadn't even thought about.

I too am a fan of documentaries exploring ancient civilisations, and can honestly say that I've never seen (or, it's fair to say, perhaps have never noticed) any which specifically address this subject ... that's probably part of the reason why I found your link so interesting. The link does make reference to evidence that some civilisations (Aztecs and Inca's) perhaps having some homophobic laws but then straight away attempts to debunk them suggesting Spanish interference. The point here is we don't know for sure one way or another.

From what I've seen, my impression was that either the subject wasn't an issue during those times, or if it was it was addressed with little fuss (so as to not be worthy of a mention). You clearly lean towards the former but it could just as easily be the latter - again, we just don't know for sure.

As for the countries you mention (re. death penalty) their main religion is reported as Islamic.

I still think it's a bit of a leap to suggest, as you did, that everything was fine and dandy before (specifically) Christianity came along.

[said]

??????????/

Ha!Ha! Or should I say a competition on story telling with South Africa v Liverpudlians.

[Toodles McGinty]

Very interesting link (Two Spirit) and a good read... a lot of stuff in there I never knew or hadn't even thought about.

...I still think it's a bit of a leap to suggest, as you did, that everything was fine and dandy before (specifically) Christianity came along.

I do have a natural aversion to organised religion. Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge that missionaries did a lot of good too. But according to quite a few documentaries and articles, often to the detriment of the culture that was already there. In Africa, and particularly, as we know, with the indigenous Americans and Australians.

I wouldn't say everything was fine and dandy, far from it. Conflict and violence seems to be the default with humans. But in the context of this thread, such things in most ancient civilisations weren't an issue until Christianity came along. And now, as you pointed out, that Islam has spread across Africa and the far east. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, all with the same fundamental roots.

It has been a matter of days since common sense has overcome the bigotry of Northern Ireland, so that abortion and same sex marriage laws have fallen into line with the rest of the country. How many women have suffered and died, purely down to religion? Too many for me.

[Alikado]

I do have a natural aversion to organised religion. Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge that missionaries did a lot of good too. But according to quite a few documentaries and articles, often to the detriment of the culture that was already there. In Africa, and particularly, as we know, with the indigenous Americans and Australians.

I wouldn't say everything was fine and dandy, far from it. Conflict and violence seems to be the default with humans. But in the context of this thread, such things in most ancient civilisations weren't an issue until Christianity came along. And now, as you pointed out, that Islam has spread across Africa and the far east. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, all with the same fundamental roots.

It has been a matter of days since common sense has overcome the bigotry of Northern Ireland, so that abortion and same sex marriage laws have fallen into line with the rest of the country. How many women have suffered and died, purely down to religion? Too many for me.

Provided food for the hungry ?

[AdmiralAckbar]

I do have a natural aversion to organised religion. Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge that missionaries did a lot of good too. But according to quite a few documentaries and articles, often to the detriment of the culture that was already there. In Africa, and particularly, as we know, with the indigenous Americans and Australians.

I wouldn't say everything was fine and dandy, far from it. Conflict and violence seems to be the default with humans. But in the context of this thread, such things in most ancient civilisations weren't an issue until Christianity came along. And now, as you pointed out, that Islam has spread across Africa and the far east. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, all with the same fundamental roots.

It has been a matter of days since common sense has overcome the bigotry of Northern Ireland, so that abortion and same sex marriage laws have fallen into line with the rest of the country. How many women have suffered and died, purely down to religion? Too many for me.

I don't think we are too far off the same page on this, in general.

I agree, conflict and violence sadly seems to be the default in humanity - too much harm has been done in the past, quite often in the name of religion ... although I am sure a significant proportion of those conflicts would likely still have occurred anyway - people will always find excuses to justify their actions.

Archaic laws (like those you mentioned in NI) are/were long overdue reform.

I think where we differ is that I don't consider there to be enough evidence, one way or another, to support your assertion that these things weren't an issue before Christianity.

Probably have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Derek H]

Don't blame everything on religion, beit Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Tribal wars were the thing well before the introduction of Christianity to Africa!

[Toodles McGinty]

I think where we differ is that I don't consider there to be enough evidence, one way or another, to support your assertion that these things weren't an issue before Christianity.

Probably have to agree to disagree on this one.

We should agree to disagree.

We aren't going to convince each other either way. As my old Ma would say, it wouldn't do for us all to be the same.

[Toodles McGinty]

Don't blame everything on religion, beit Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Tribal wars were the thing well before the introduction of Christianity to Africa!

Absolutely. That's the human condition, I'm afraid. I've seen fisticuffs between two women over a 'yellow sticker' item in Sainsburys.

In the long history of the world, our bad tempered species is but a blink of the eye, and should be extinct before too long. Bloody idiots.