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Thread: Keir Starmer

  1. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandGroundZero View Post
    When was the last time a new government (or even a returning government) did not face a long list of dire problems that trump political reform? Starmer's short discourse in the Sunday Mirror is standard fare for politicians — superficial tinkering, or no change can be expected.
    In 2020, leadership candidate Starmer supported a constitutional convention implying that redistributing power meant abandoning FPTP in favour of proportional representation [which of course, many self-described 'progressives ' advocate as the remedy for democratic deficit]! A quick look at countries that have PR ought to dispel that notion. Nothing inherent in PR prevents the same low standard of parliamentary representatives, or the same shortcomings of parliamentary procedure.
    Starmer's article is pure cant. To say "Not sure that's the point right now." is to concede no change is possible.

    We are where we are, today, because our governing institutions are (to borrow an oft-repeated phrase attributed to John Reid) 'not fit for purpose '.
    If Starmer is elected, he'll have 14 years of absolute **** to clean up. I'd say that overhauling the voting system is well down the list of priorities, as much as most of us would like it.

    You can vote for the status quo, which will be Truss as a puppet of the ERG. I doubt she'll last two years. Between external world pressures and the dire decade plus of misgovernment, there's no way they can clear up the mess they've created, made worse by Brexit. They have no answer to the cost of living crisis, fuel poverty, food poverty, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

    There's a growing anger in the populace, but it isn't Tory policy to worry about such people. 'Levelling up' is just another 3 word slogan they have no intention of following, as it is basically anti-Tory to bother. Anti-this-bunch of Tories, anyway. If they had, they've had done it in the last 12 years. Instead, we've had a decade of austerity and that has ravaged the country. Public services are in tatters. The NHS has a big 'for sale' sign on it, the 1828 group calls for the NHS to be replaced by an insurance system and for Public Health England to be scrapped. Truss is a member of 1828. There's a growing wave in support of industrial action. There's hardly a sector of society that isn't cannonballing towards striking.

    The country will continue to slide. As Brexit and Tory policy takes hold, more sleaze, cronyism and lies are uncovered by how many enquiries? How many winters where the weak, poor and ill die? The NHS will be in no position to save them. The government were ripping into the NHS long before the pandemic. It's on its last legs now. A respiratory disease pandemic, incidentally, was the ONLY type of pandemic the government considered, then completely ignored (Exercise Cygnus), so I won't hear of 'nobody could possibly have prepared'. We thought about it and ignored it. The soon-to-be-sold-NHS saved us. Oxford uni saved us. This government milked it for every penny.

    The blood will be on Tory hands, and only Tory hands. When the deaths from austerity, added to the unnecessary deaths from Covid and those poor souls that will perish over the next few winters, it's all on Tory hands. And it is 100s of 1000s of unforgivable deaths. That's just up to now, without the winters to come.

    Then there is the systematic stripping of our rights. References to abortion and sexual health rights removed without consultation. Rights to protest stripped. Rights to strike being stripped. How many human or workers rights on the bonfire?

    Truss is incompetent, a lightweight, flipping and flopping to suit her road to power. She's not going to get to an election, there'll be another leadership election before that. After being dropped into the Toriest seat possible, because he's too comically incompetent to retain his own, enter Bunter to try and cling on to the red wall and Gammon.

    And round it goes, more deaths, more austerity, no answer to the problems they will have created in 14 years of power. No answer to the future pandemics that inevitably come. Blame Russia, while taking millions of roubles and elevating them to the Lords. Blame pandemics. Blame China. Blame everyone but 14 years of criminal government.

    So you can vote for an alternative. You can spoil your ballot paper. You can have more of the same. But if political reform is top of your list, go ahead and start a grassroots local movement. I'd say the rest of us have got more to worry about.

    Not dismissing it, I DO think we need reform, but there isn't a government on earth that will prioritise that immediately under the current circumstances.





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  3. #527
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    The country will continue to slide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    If Starmer is elected, he'll have 14 years of absolute **** to clean up. …
    1. "absolute **** " notwithstanding, it is still doubtful Labour will gain a working majority on its own

    2. so-called "progressives " (in parliament) are in fact an ill-assorted collection whose preeminent common factor is that they're NOT TORY!


    In the circumstances, the next government will be adrift in that sea of "absolute **** ". It will be utterly ineffective.

    I am now leading a Labour Party that wants to change lives and give Britain the fresh start it needs.
    That means turning from a party of protest into a party that can win power - then hand that power to working people. I make no apologies for that.
    — as if that's Starmer's innovation!

    The next government, however it is constituted will flail around, unable to resolve the conflicting demands it faces. Keir Starmer will be lucky to last two years. It will bear blame, be cast out and replaced by a rule-breaking government worse than Johnson's.

    The Labour party cannot bring itself to think outside the box because it is thoroughly embedded in this broken system.

  4. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandGroundZero View Post

    The next government, however it is constituted will flail around, unable to resolve the conflicting demands it faces. Keir Starmer will be lucky to last two years. It will bear blame, be cast out and replaced by a rule-breaking government worse than Johnson's.
    A distinct possibility. If Labour, or more likely a Labour-led coalition, does come to power it will take on a poisoned chalice. It will take more than one term to come close to clearing the mess left by 14 years of successively more dreadful governments.

    I can't think of a reason, again short of general strikes, that Starmer would be replaced as PM unless the party have a VONC in him. As we've seen with Johnson, even if the will is there, the public can't shift him. Same with Starmer. If they do, it might not be a massive loss. It would very much depend on what he does in the first couple of years. I can't see wholesale constitutional reform being on the agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by SGZ
    The Labour party cannot bring itself to think outside the box because it is thoroughly embedded in this broken system.
    Yes, because that's been the system for centuries. Unless some new party is formed and miraculously gets elected AND offers the public a completely new way of governing, that's the way it is. It might not be what you or I want, but that is the status quo.

    You can complain about Labour, the Lib-Dems etc, but unless someone actually starts this constitutional revolution, that's how it will continue. It's great to be idealistic, but I'm guessing most people are more interested in not freezing to death or dying of starvation / malnutrition / whatever the next pandemic is than political purity.

    However, there are grassroots movements out there. Find one that has the same goals as you and support them. Get involved. The system won't change unless there's a will to change it, and people ready to roll up their sleeves and hit the doorsteps. As the saying goes 'be the change'.

  5. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    A distinct possibility. If Labour, or more likely a Labour-led coalition, does come to power it will take on a poisoned chalice. It will take more than one term to come close to clearing the mess left by 14 years of successively more dreadful governments.

    I can't think of a reason, again short of general strikes, that Starmer would be replaced as PM unless the party have a VONC in him. As we've seen with Johnson, even if the will is there, the public can't shift him. Same with Starmer. If they do, it might not be a massive loss. It would very much depend on what he does in the first couple of years. I can't see wholesale constitutional reform being on the agenda.



    Yes, because that's been the system for centuries. Unless some new party is formed and miraculously gets elected AND offers the public a completely new way of governing, that's the way it is. It might not be what you or I want, but that is the status quo.

    You can complain about Labour, the Lib-Dems etc, but unless someone actually starts this constitutional revolution, that's how it will continue. It's great to be idealistic, but I'm guessing most people are more interested in not freezing to death or dying of starvation / malnutrition / whatever the next pandemic is than political purity.

    However, there are grassroots movements out there. Find one that has the same goals as you and support them. Get involved. The system won't change unless there's a will to change it, and people ready to roll up their sleeves and hit the doorsteps. As the saying goes 'be the change'.
    It is a poisoned chalice for Sunak and Truss as well, both seem intent on topping up the poison at the moment.

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  7. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post

    Yes, because that's been the system for centuries. Unless some new party is formed and miraculously gets elected AND offers the public a completely new way of governing, that's the way it is. It might not be what you or I want, but that is the status quo.
    There is an interesting little pamphlet available online from The Constitution Society titled: Electoral Systems and Electoral Reform in the UK in Historical Perspective which you should read. Here is an extract from the Introduction:
    In April 2011, in the run-up to the Alternative Vote Referendum, then-Prime Minister David Cameron appealed to tradition in his defence of the existing First-Past-the-Post (FPTP) electoral system. Arguing that it was ‘enshrined in our constitution and integral to our history’, he contended that ‘First-Past-the-Post isn’t just one way of counting votes; it is an expression of our fairness as a country.’ His comments were echoed by the Labour peer Lord Reid, at a time a fellow campaigner against electoral reform, who called FPTP ‘the British way’, and ‘the foundation of our democracy for generations’.

    "Although widespread, this understanding of Britain’s parliamentary democracy as historically inextricable from FPTP is a misconception, and one that serves to obscure the rich history of electoral systems and electoral reform in the UK. In fact, far from being an age-old inheritance, the uniform system of FPTP in single-member constituencies that we use today for elections to the House of Commons is a post-war creation. Moreover, rather than the natural and inevitable outcome of British democratization, its emergence was highly contingent: over the past two hundred years, a surprising range of electoral systems have been used."

    It may strike you as surprising, but the first important step may be to dissuade constitutional reformers from advocating PR!

    Many self-described 'progressives ' advocating proportional representation merely wish to tweak the election of representatives without significantly enhancing democratic legitimacy. That's PR! "Nothing inherent in PR prevents the same low standard of parliamentary representatives, or the same shortcomings of parliamentary procedure."

  8. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandGroundZero View Post
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    There is an interesting little pamphlet available online from The Constitution Society titled: Electoral Systems and Electoral Reform in the UK in Historical Perspective which you should read. Here is an extract from the Introduction:
    In April 2011, in the run-up to the Alternative Vote Referendum, then-Prime Minister David Cameron appealed to tradition in his defence of the existing First-Past-the-Post (FPTP) electoral system. Arguing that it was ‘enshrined in our constitution and integral to our history’, he contended that ‘First-Past-the-Post isn’t just one way of counting votes; it is an expression of our fairness as a country.’ His comments were echoed by the Labour peer Lord Reid, at a time a fellow campaigner against electoral reform, who called FPTP ‘the British way’, and ‘the foundation of our democracy for generations’.

    "Although widespread, this understanding of Britain’s parliamentary democracy as historically inextricable from FPTP is a misconception, and one that serves to obscure the rich history of electoral systems and electoral reform in the UK. In fact, far from being an age-old inheritance, the uniform system of FPTP in single-member constituencies that we use today for elections to the House of Commons is a post-war creation. Moreover, rather than the natural and inevitable outcome of British democratization, its emergence was highly contingent: over the past two hundred years, a surprising range of electoral systems have been used."

    It may strike you as surprising, but the first important step may be to dissuade constitutional reformers from advocating PR!

    Many self-described 'progressives ' advocating proportional representation merely wish to tweak the election of representatives without significantly enhancing democratic legitimacy. That's PR! "Nothing inherent in PR prevents the same low standard of parliamentary representatives, or the same shortcomings of parliamentary procedure."
    PR should lead to a better standard of Members being elected as rather than candidates standing for a Constituency they would be on a list and you would expect that the Parties would put the most able and talented at the top or am being naive?

    I think a hybrid system would be better, cut down the Constituencies to 300 and vote as normal with a none of the above box, have a second part to the ballot paper with a list of parties that have fielded 10 candidates or more that way I could get to vote For SNP, PLAID CYMRW or RAVING MONSTER LOONY or whoever tickles my fancy. 150 seats could be up for grabs by PR and the Members elected could cover for the Cabinet Ministers who cannot look after their constituents and Cabinet job at the same time.
    The House of Lords should have many of it's powers taken by HoC restored to return to being a fully effective Upper Chamber and become fully elected, no more aristocats in position because great great great grandad did something unmentionable to or for somebody who was allegedly important.
    A strict code of conduct should be in place, criminal convictions would disbar, a criminal charge would be suspension and expulsion on conviction, the public deserve better than they are getting we need leaders who are beyond reproach not a bunch of sisters and criminals.

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  10. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alikado View Post
    PR should lead to a better standard of Members being elected as rather than candidates standing for a Constituency they would be on a list and you would expect that the Parties would put the most able and talented at the top or am being naive?
    1. Who selects each party's executive and determines its scope?
    2. Do "the most able and talented" get selected?
      Or, do the ideologically compliant get selected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alikado View Post
    I think a hybrid system would be better, …
    There are of course countless permutations and combinations to choose among proportional systems. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. None however necessarily constrain 'the executive '; and none ensures that the representatives reflect a cross-section of the electorate, or political opinion.
    Worse, none change the overly centralized, top-down nature of institutional legitimacy.

  11. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandGroundZero View Post
    1. Who selects each party's executive and determines its scope?
    2. Do "the most able and talented" get selected?
      Or, do the ideologically compliant get selected?


    There are of course countless permutations and combinations to choose among proportional systems. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. None however necessarily constrain 'the executive '; and none ensures that the representatives reflect a cross-section of the electorate, or political opinion.
    Worse, none change the overly centralized, top-down nature of institutional legitimacy.
    The members select the party's exec, if the Members want their party in power in would be folly to not pick the most able and talented to put before the electorate.
    All systems have faults and advantages that is why I suggest a mixed system.

  12. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alikado View Post
    The members select the party's exec, if the Members want their party in power in would be folly to not pick the most able and talented to put before the electorate.
    Folly for whom? Now, that is naive.
    Each Party member has her/his lens through which judgements are made. Add to that, PR systems tend to proliferate parties — each with a different and generally narrower set of priorities. [Labour and Conservatives particularly would both be diminished.] Evidence from existing PR legislatures suggest that policy would be hammered-out behind closed doors. Proportional representation offers only an illusion of greater democratic legitimacy.

    _______________________________________________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by Alikado View Post
    All systems have faults and advantages that is why I suggest a mixed system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alikado View Post

    I think a hybrid system would be better, cut down the Constituencies to 300 and vote as normal with a none of the above box, have a second part to the ballot paper with a list of parties that have fielded 10 candidates or more … . 150 seats could be up for grabs by PR and the Members elected could cover for the Cabinet Ministers who cannot look after their constituents and Cabinet job at the same time.
    Your hybrid is just one of innumerable permutations. It leaves the legislative process subject to manipulation by the executive. The executive will be even more opaque. Members of parliament whether elected directly or from the proportional top-up list would be made pointlessly busy (as they currently are) so that they have little opportunity or inclination to scrutinize legislation.
    [Read Isabel Hardman's Why we get the wrong politicians, (available in Sefton libraries)]·

  13. #535
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    I think we all agree that the system is wrong. It's a question of what to do about it.

    Of course we need grass roots reform. The system is most definitely broken. Personally I dislike the use of 'safe seats' to drop in personality politicians as a means of ensuring they retain their place in the House. And I speak as one who would like to see Andy Burnham back in the Commons.

    But as always, the party that is elected by FPTP won't be in any rush to change the status quo.

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    Starmer likes his apologises....

    Oct 20 - Sir Keir Starmer apologises to Jewish community on ‘day of shame’ as antisemitism report published.

    Feb 21 - Keir Starmer apologises after a fiery exchange with the Prime Minister about the European Medicines Agency.

    Apr 21 - Keir Starmer has apologised for visiting a north London church that has faced criticism for homophobia.

    Feb - Keir Starmer apologised for failures to prosecute BBC beast Jimmy Savile

    Apr - Keir Starmer forced to apologise as he withdraws angry PMQs attack on Boris

    Apr -Keir Starmer apologises for the Corbyn years

    Aug - Keir Starmer apologised to the Commissioner for breaching the MPs’ code of conduct 8 times. (Not his fault though)

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    PM in waiting?

    I just watched Keir Starmer being interviewed on BBC Breakfast.

    It is impossible to overstate the differences between the robotic hardly-human Truss and how Starmer performed this morning. I can see why she's in hiding at the moment.

    A very assured, confident interview where he actually answered the questions put to him, even a tricky one about Rupa Huq. He used that to his advantage, making the point that they will follow the rules to the letter, unlike another party tends to do when faced with a rule breaker.

    We really do need a general election.

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  17. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirac View Post
    I just watched Keir Starmer being interviewed on BBC Breakfast.

    It is impossible to overstate the differences between the robotic hardly-human Truss and how Starmer performed this morning. I can see why she's in hiding at the moment.

    A very assured, confident interview where he actually answered the questions put to him, even a tricky one about Rupa Huq. He used that to his advantage, making the point that they will follow the rules to the letter, unlike another party tends to do when faced with a rule breaker.

    We really do need a general election.
    Erm , I think you'll find being interviewed on breakfast television a bit different to running the country.

  18. #539
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    Indeed
    She can't do either

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  20. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grassroots2 View Post
    Erm , I think you'll find being interviewed on breakfast television a bit different to running the country.
    You're probably right but if you can't handle an interview it's not a good start.

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