Why is nobody talking about the impending disaster?

[MICK/GILLY]

You are talking to him as if he is the PNP ha ha .

It’s fair to say he does like his ANAGRAMS corny hunt etc but you must not propose he has alternative accounts and uses them to talk to himself and like his own posts or you will get us in trouble, I certainly wouldn’t do that.

What do you call a radic al person?
profound, extremist, fanatical, far-out, leftist, militant, progressive, revolutionary, sweeping, uncompromising, violent, agitator, anarchist, fanatic, firebrand, insurgent, rebel, reformer, renegade, rioter.

[local]

We could have two Euro duffers on a tandem cycling around Europe whining, they just have to be a pair of batchelors who on earth would put up with the incessant moaning?

Strangely enough in our trips abroad this year not once did I think of discussing or more accurately whinging about visas with random people,

Business (great) sights, cultures, people, enjoying food, not once did anyone pity us whilst away, far from it.


My worry is the poor sods who had to humour this mobile misery tour.

[duncet]

I'm not an economics expert, so perhaps someone can explain the situation we now have with regard to energy bills.

The government is going to give people an allowance of up to £1600, not as cash, but as payments towards their energy bills. This money will presumably be paid by the government to the energy companies who have recently announced multi-billion pound profits.

The goverment is then going to apply a 25% windfall tax to those same energy companies, so this will presumably pay for the allowances they are 'paying' to consumers, so the money is just going round in a circle. The energy companies will just have to 'get by' on 75% of their multi-billions of profits.

Wouldn't it be easier to introduce emergency legislation to force the energy companies to lower their prices, and when the energy companies say that this will make them insolvent, then they are taken into public ownership. Of course, no Tory government would ever do that, so the solution is in the hands of the voters.

I realise that this is an over-simplistic view, but isn't this whole situation of recirculating money just designed to prop up a failed system that depends too heavily on non-renewable energy?

It might be a "simplistic view" but it carries more common sense than any other contributions on this site - or in the national newspapers. It should form the basis of an idea that can be worked on. It is totally ridiculous that less well off people should be given a lump sum to subsidise their energy bills - which they have to directly pass on to these companies - thus increasing their already obscene profits.

[MICK/GILLY]

One man’s rubbish is another man’s schizophrenia.

[Dirac]

Today's inflation figures are worse than many people feared.
It makes a terrible situation even worse.

Economist Richard Murphy is flagging up the disastrous effect fuel prices will have on schools, hospitals (neither has energy prices capped), charities and businesses.

Prepare for a truly disastrous period. The government is not helping.


https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/...ing-2023-2.pdf

[Dirac]

The ONS has just tweeted a link to some really useful data.
It breaks down the inflation rates depending on income/housing etc.

So when inflation was 8.2% overall, for low income families it was 8.7% compared to 7.8% for higher earners.

Subsidised renters - 9.8%
Owner-occupiers - 8.1%
Private renters - 7.7%

So, if the headline figure is now just over 10%, for low-income families it will certainly be significantly higher.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/infla...priltojune2022

[Dirac]

I have just read this thread by economist Richard Murphy.

It really is excellent, and I suspect may be the only realistic way of partly fixing our broken energy "market".


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...621312512.html

[bensherman]

I have just read this thread by economist Richard Murphy.

It really is excellent, and I suspect may be the only realistic way of partly fixing our broken energy "market".


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...621312512.html

That's very good

[Toodles McGinty]

I have just read this thread by economist Richard Murphy.

It really is excellent, and I suspect may be the only realistic way of partly fixing our broken energy "market".


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...621312512.html

Good thread.

Here's another, and why I called it 'energy Armageddon' on another post.

In short, we face imminent energy Armageddon.

Excerpt:

"There’s understandable, deep concern about the energy-price-shock-induced ruin which, absent unprecedented government action, faces most of the middle class & less prosperous social groups, along with the businesses on which they often rely for a living.

That description isn’t hyperbole. Pretty basic arithmetic shows how unsustainable finances will quickly become, for tens of millions of people & hundreds of thousands of businesses in the UK, unless most of their future energy costs are, one way or a other, paid for them.

Without profound government intervention now, sustained for a significant period, the UK will descend into darkness. In more - terrifying - ways than one. What we experienced in the 1970s is nothing to what will face us if we fail. "

[The PNP]

"There’s understandable, deep concern about the energy-price-shock-induced ruin which, absent unprecedented government action, faces most of the middle class & less prosperous social groups, along with the businesses on which they often rely for a living.

That description isn’t hyperbole. Pretty basic arithmetic shows how unsustainable finances will quickly become, for tens of millions of people & hundreds of thousands of businesses in the UK, unless most of their future energy costs are, one way or a other, paid for them.

Too many people with their energy eggs in the same (fossil fuel) basket unfortunately. It was pretty obvious, at least to some, that the finite and non-renewable resource they were on, would sooner or later reach (in this case) 'peak-gas'.

When demand outstrips supply of a resource (for whatever reason) prices will always reflect that. Those who could see what was coming and had installed a backup like a heatpump, groundsource setup or a multifuel/woodstove, will be so glad that they did.

[Dirac]

Too many people with their energy eggs in the same (fossil fuel) basket unfortunately. It was pretty obvious, at least to some, that the finite and non-renewable resource they were on, would sooner or later reach (in this case) 'peak-gas'.

When demand outstrips supply of a resource (for whatever reason) prices will always reflect that. Those who could see what was coming and had installed a backup like a heatpump, groundsource setup or a multifuel/woodstove, will be so glad that they did.

Heatpumps are not suitable in all situations (and still run on electricity), and stoves are a massive source of particulate pollution.

The real problems will hit such places as hospitals, schools, care homes and charities, who don't have their unit costs limited as most private individuals do.

When their bills multiply, our society is in real trouble, and the amoebae who pretend to be suitable PMs-in-waiting have no idea of the scale of the imminent problems, let alone a plan that might help.

Imagine if we'd chosen "chaos with Ed Milliband"..!

[The PNP]

Heatpumps are not suitable in all situations (and still run on electricity), and stoves are a massive source of particulate pollution.

There'll be some, who'll just be glad their home still has an old-fashioned fireplace to fall back on. I remember the last bitingly cold Winter we had about ten years ago - people who'd never used their fireplace before, were turning to it out of sheer desperation!

The real problems will hit such places as hospitals, schools, care homes and charities, who don't have their unit costs limited as most private individuals do.

Back in the day, hospitals and the like had a traditional boilerhouse, where some chap would keep the bolier/s stoked up with coal or coke. There may well have been two boilers, one big one for Winter, that supplied hot water and ran the central heating. Another smaller one would sit alongside it, that came into use during Summer, just for supplying hot water.

When I was a kid, I was fortunate enough to live in a large property that was heated in that manner. It also had several fireplaces, that were regularly lit in Winter - my 'job' was sometimes to set the fires, ready for lighting.

The modern equivalent of coal/coke boilers, would be a mechanically-fed woodpellet system. It wouldn't surprise me at all if, in the fullness of time, we don't see these being installed in large public buildings and hospitals, etc.

[sandGroundZero]

Too many people with their energy eggs in the same (fossil fuel) basket unfortunately. It was pretty obvious, at least to some, that the finite and non-renewable resource they were on, would sooner or later reach (in this case) 'peak-gas'.
…

'Peak' fossil fuel — oil, gas, coal — was one of environmentalists' discreditable conceits! It demonstrates how we can be misdirected, good intentions notwithstanding.

When demand outstrips supply of a resource (for whatever reason) prices will always reflect that. Those who could see what was coming and had installed a backup like a heatpump, groundsource setup or a multifuel/woodstove, will be so glad that they did.

Your post is too smug [by an order of magnitude]. Those alternatives you've listed¹ have been extravagant and well out of reach for most UK households.

A hydraulic fracturing (fracking) oil rig in Colorado. grandriver / Getty Images

Commentator George Monbiot has pointed out a clearly devious tack of [for various reasons] climate change resistors, namely: shifting responsibility for action from corporate bodies and governments onto households and individuals. Your post underlines the regrettable success of that ploy.

Note:

1. multi-fuel & wood burning stoves have perhaps been less extravagant; however as indicated elsewhere, their CO² neutral claims must be set against particulate emissions.

[The PNP]

Your post is too smug [by an order of magnitude]. Those alternatives you've listed¹ have been extravagant and well out of reach for most UK households

Fact is, a groundsource or heatpump system, whilst not cheap (guessing a 'from' price of £10k), will still have cost less in the long term, than sticking with gas. Where the annual cost for a gas-only household, has risen by circa £3k....Breakeven point with those figures, is attained in just three to four years. Thereafter, the householder is back in pocket and remains so.

To soldier on with gas is a strategy that could pay off, but imo is unlikely to. I don't see gas ever returning to its old pricelevel. I can't see successive Govts effectively subsidising the price of gas forever either.

[silver fox]

Fact is, a groundsource or heatpump system, whilst not cheap (guessing a 'from' price of £10k), will still have cost less in the long term, than sticking with gas. Where the annual cost for a gas-only household, has risen by circa £3k....Breakeven point with those figures, is attained in just three to four years. Thereafter, the householder is back in pocket.

You never look at the actual practicalities, there are large numbers who simply could not under any circumstances install a heat pump, for starters there is the initial capital outlay, many properties are unsuitable in many ways, then of course anyone living in rented accommodation is automatically a none starter, unless you think landlords will install these devices.