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Originally Posted by Alikado
If they had been black it would have been different, there would have been calls for the death penalty for such an attack on American Democracy.
Is that they or him.
As we have seen weeks of violent rioting took place in Minneapolis and none of them have been strung up.
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It very much is the point as the majority were "more or less law abiding" many demonstrations see a minority of people who use it as an excuse for trouble.
The majority were clearly not incited to do much other than wander around taking selfies.
They weren't very incited were they?
The charge is "incitement of insurrection" yet the overwhelming majority clearly were not violent.
So which did he incite the selfie-takers, the overwhelming majority or the minority?
Can you be charged with inciting people to be peaceful or violent at the same time? …
Your argument doesn't cut it, local.
President Trump cultivated a subset of Trump supporters — nativists, white supremicists, Proud Boys, o-t-p gun rights activists and more. You have implied a distinction between rioters and peaceful protesters here while denying the same vis-à-vis pro-REMAIN and BLM demonstrations.
There were quite enough people chanting violent slogans and breaking things to gain entry outside the Capitol on January 6th. The comparatively peaceful majority, if they were a majority, provided cover for the premeditated insurrectionists who were there at the President's bidding.
Or so at least, is the charge. Investigations will continue for some time unless Biden quashes them in a mistaken gesture of national reconciliation.
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…The reality is Pelosi and her co-conspirators want Trump out of the running.
If they were honest about that and the debate might just expose it during the hearing we might just get a very different outcome to the one she wants.
Millions of Americans know a stitch-up when they see one.
It remains to be seen to what extent President Trump evades responsibility for his unsubstantiated election fraud claims plus assorted other misdemeanours leading up to the invasion of the Capitol. If he largely escapes comeuppance, it will be because Republican state and federal politicians have been relying on anti-democratic ploys — voter suppression, gerrymandering — plus the skewed nature of the Senate since before Trump and intend to continue doing so.
The reality is Pelosi [i.e. the Democrats] are up against undemocratic biases in US political institutions. Donald Trump exploited these and the deeply ingrained prejudices of the electorate with (mostly) deft touch. This is Trump's ace-up-his-sleeve and NOT as you have occasionally suggested business acumen.
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Originally Posted by local
Is that they or him.
As we have seen weeks of violent rioting took place in Minneapolis and none of them have been strung up.
Possibly both, there is a big difference between Washington and Minneapolis, the Capital and some place half the Americans don't know where it is and probably don't care about.
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Your premise is incorrect;
nativists, white supremicists, Proud Boys, o-t-p gun rights activists and more
were all up and running before Trump and The NRA declined under Trump so clearly he wasn't very good at gardening.
Trump trying to manufacture some cover, for the trouble makers again fantasy;
The comparatively peaceful majority, if they were a majority, provided cover for the premeditated insurrectionists who were there at the President's bidding.
You are clutching at some incitement process that simply didn't happen from Trump.
How do you propose he targetted just some with his speech?
Trump is clever enough to realise in advance that his supporters storming through congress wouldn't do the great supporter of law&order and the security forces any good.
The best thing that has happened to Trump is the latest impeachment process without it he would have wandered off to bore fellow golfers of his time in power.
Now he has another chance to highlight his perceived voting irregularities.
It is a spectacular own goal by the Democrats.
Trumps impeachment is now the lead story in America he has been gifted the limelight by short thinking Democrats.
It should be all about Biden and Harris it isn't.
The other problem is Trumps inalienable right to be objectionable under the first amendment.
He has without any doubt pushed that right to the moon and back.
It appears just one word "fight" in that long and dull speech is the pivot for his incitement charge.
I am sure he will "fight" that, but don't expect the podgy coward to turn up gun in hand.
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“And yet, however just these sentiments will be allowed to be, we have already sufficient indications that it will happen in this as in all former cases of great national discussion. A torrent of angry and malignant passions will be let loose. To judge from the conduct of the opposite parties, we shall be led to conclude that they will mutually hope to evince the justness of their opinions, and to increase the number of their converts by the loudness of their declamations and the bitterness of their invectives. An enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government will be stigmatized as the offspring of a temper fond of despotic power and hostile to the principles of liberty. An over-scrupulous jealousy of danger to the rights of the people, which is more commonly the fault of the head than of the heart, will be represented as mere pretense and artifice, the stale bait for popularity at the expense of the public good. It will be forgotten, on the one hand, that jealousy is the usual concomitant of love, and that the noble enthusiasm of liberty is apt to be infected with a spirit of narrow and illiberal distrust. On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.”
Last edited by sandGroundZero; 16/01/2021 at 08:44 PM.
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In respons to
Insisting that President Trump's second impeachment relies exclusively on his January 6th address to supporters is incorrect. Paradoxically, it is true that there would have been no second impeachment without it. The President in his folly brought another first — two impeachments — upon himself.
Trump's modus operandi throughout his Presidency was to stoke grievance and backhandedly court extremists. The President's January 6th rally remarks were vaguely, calculatedly deniable. Deniable, but not nearly as clever as he, himself, presumably imagined or as innocent as you, local, continue to insist.
Your post #169 appears to imply that Trump by continuing to assert electoral fraud will improve his position. That is highly doubtful. He has not produced substantiating evidence before now; probably because fraud was negligible except in the minds of Trump and his supporters.
Excepting a shrinking handful, the President's erstwhile supporters in the Legislative Branch are slowly and reluctantly acknowledging Biden's victory. I cannot recall any posts on this thread, apart from your own, suggesting Trump has a leg to stand on. Even your posts hint at the absurdity of his claims. You are indeed 'ploughing a lonely furrow'.
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Originally Posted by local
Your premise is incorrect;
nativists, white supremicists, Proud Boys, o-t-p gun rights activists and more
were all up and running before Trump and The NRA declined under Trump so clearly he wasn't very good at gardening.
Trump trying to manufacture some cover, for the trouble makers again fantasy;
The comparatively peaceful majority, if they were a majority, provided cover for the premeditated insurrectionists who were there at the President's bidding.
You are clutching at some incitement process that simply didn't happen from Trump.
How do you propose he targetted just some with his speech?
Trump is clever enough to realise in advance that his supporters storming through congress wouldn't do the great supporter of law&order and the security forces any good.
The best thing that has happened to Trump is the latest impeachment process without it he would have wandered off to bore fellow golfers of his time in power.
Now he has another chance to highlight his perceived voting irregularities.
It is a spectacular own goal by the Democrats.
Trumps impeachment is now the lead story in America he has been gifted the limelight by short thinking Democrats.
It should be all about Biden and Harris it isn't.
The other problem is Trumps inalienable right to be objectionable under the first amendment.
He has without any doubt pushed that right to the moon and back.
It appears just one word "fight" in that long and dull speech is the pivot for his incitement charge.
I am sure he will "fight" that, but don't expect the podgy coward to turn up gun in hand.
Trump now has an interesting dilemma, many of the terrorists are now calling for a Presidential pardon before Trump slinks off the scene, particularly from the lawyer defending the oaf with the spear and horned hat.
His lawyers appeal for a pardon, contain the words that Angelis (think that's his name) deserves a pardon because they were only doing what TRUMP ASKED THEM TO DO, now if Trump issues a pardon, then surely he is also accepting complicity in the result, or if he ignores them, as I expect he will after his "law and order speech", there will be a lot of unhappy and hopefully ex Trump followers.
Sure it is bad that so much attention is centred on Trump, but equally he must not be allowed to just walk away.
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We now reach the absurd with the pursuit of Trump on indeed Trumped up incitement charge pushed forward by the Democrats their supporters and Trump obsessives.
A simple analysis of the crowd which was large and strung out shows it is unlikely that many could even hear what he said.
If you had waded through his long and rambling speech which had all the rousing ability of a colonscopy you will struggle to find anything other than a long rant which he is perfectly entitled to do under the 1st amendment.
The sight of many of the protestors chatting with the security forces was widely shown on TV, they clearly hid their incitement very well.
Its a nonsense and plays right into the orange ones hands.
The collective insanity enveloping Trump is manna from heaven for the real despots in the world.
I could very easily believe Russia or China is behind this mass hysteria whipping up the gullible.
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Originally Posted by local
We now reach the absurd with the pursuit of Trump on indeed Trumped up incitement charge pushed forward by the Democrats their supporters and Trump obsessives.
A simple analysis of the crowd which was large and strung out shows it is unlikely that many could even hear what he said.
If you had waded through his long and rambling speech which had all the rousing ability of a colonscopy you will struggle to find anything other than a long rant which he is perfectly entitled to do under the 1st amendment.
The sight of many of the protestors chatting with the security forces was widely shown on TV, they clearly hid their incitement very well.
Its a nonsense and plays right into the orange ones hands.
The collective insanity enveloping Trump is manna from heaven for the real despots in the world.
I could very easily believe Russia or China is behind this mass hysteria whipping up the gullible.
The insurgency was not only due to his final rabble rousing speech and you know it, that last speech was the final trigger to a lengthy campaign of lies, misinformation, conspiracy theories and a refusal to accept a democratic result.
It is one thing to oppose a decision, it is another thing altogether to attempt to overthrow that decision, particularly when it’s a so called leader calling for the overthrow.
It would be better if Trump simply slunk off, but his egomania won’t allow that, he is still desperately hanging on because he needs the protection from the position, it is very clear that there are many questions he will have to answer, the incitement charges are just the start, far from being the great success, his failures are queuing up.
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Originally Posted by silver fox
The insurgency was not only due to his final rabble rousing speech and you know it, that last speech was the final trigger to a lengthy campaign of lies, misinformation, conspiracy theories and a refusal to accept a democratic result.
It is one thing to oppose a decision, it is another thing altogether to attempt to overthrow that decision, particularly when it’s a so called leader calling for the overthrow.
It would be better if Trump simply slunk off, but his egomania won’t allow that, he is still desperately hanging on because he needs the protection from the position, it is very clear that there are many questions he will have to answer, the incitement charges are just the start, far from being the great success, his failures are queuing up.
In the end he will get his wish to be a 2 Term President.
1 Term in the White House and 1 Term in the Jail House.
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"We now reach the absurd with the pursuit of Trump …
…The collective insanity enveloping Trump is manna from heaven for the real despots in the world.
I could very easily believe Russia or China is behind this mass hysteria whipping up the gullible." The question is:
• Is local gullible? Is s/he swept-up in Donald Trump's "mass hysteria"?
On the evidence of local's posts on President Trump and BREXIT the working hypothesis is that along with a goodly number of BREXIT supporting Conservatives who 'nailed their colours to the mast ' when candidate Trump embraced Nigel Farage and endorsed an uncompromising BREXIT, local has invested too much in down-playing the President's many political gaffes and his retrograde policy initiatives to relinquish his campaign and concede that not only has Trump's Presidency has been seriously damaging to America, local's campaign in support is inextricably linked with support for BREXIT.
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"…manna from heaven for the real despots in the world. …Russia or China is behind this mass hysteria whipping up the gullible."
…is in keeping with local's 'obsession' with Trump. Bigging-up Trump and BREXIT, arguably at the expense of the UK's and America's national interest, is a consistent feature in local's posts.
Nigel Farage goes to bat for candidate Trump
BREXIT too, has some unsavoury links with Russian dirty money and Putin cronies.
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The testimonies (excuses) heard so far from those who have been arrested show that they felt they were responding to the President's instructions to gather in Washington and fight for their country (as in 'If you don't fight you will have no country left'). So he called them to him (It's gonna be wild) and he stoked them up to march on the Capitol. Trump spends hours on Social media so it's not very realistic to think that he wasn't aware of the chatter around insurrection. Knowing that, he still held the rally and incited them. The fact that the entireity of the crowd didn't get involved in the riot is neither here nor there. We can't know their motivation for not getting involved (although we would like to think it was because they suddenly realised that they were going to get into something they hadn't bargained for) However, we do know the motivations of the thousands who did surround the building on all sides and tried to kill policemen because it is all over their social media. Moreover we can see and hear the motivations and actions of the hundreds who actually got into the building and who were also hunting out specific places and people.
The power that Trump has over millions of people is worrying. Local likes to call those who have seen through him from the beginning gullible but it's patently obvious that the gullibility is all on the side of Trump supporters. A continual complaint of Trump's supporters in Congress is that Democrats have hated him from the start. I think hate is too strong a word to describe the animus to Trump at first although it certainly progressed into that as each outrageous act was foisted on the country. It was more that Democrats were not bamboozled from the get-go by whatever 'charisma' Trump has. Republicans can hardly blame them for that since they said exactly the same about him before he got the nomination, all now conveniently morphed into sycophancy and adoration.
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Originally Posted by sandGroundZero
"We now reach the absurd with the pursuit of Trump …
…The collective insanity enveloping Trump is manna from heaven for the real despots in the world.
I could very easily believe Russia or China is behind this mass hysteria whipping up the gullible." The question is:
• Is local gullible? Is s/he swept-up in Donald Trump's "mass hysteria"?
On the evidence of local's posts on President Trump and BREXIT the working hypothesis is that along with a goodly number of BREXIT supporting Conservatives who 'nailed their colours to the mast ' when candidate Trump embraced Nigel Farage and endorsed an uncompromising BREXIT, local has invested too much in down-playing the President's many political gaffes and his retrograde policy initiatives to relinquish his campaign and concede that not only has Trump's Presidency has been seriously damaging to America, local's campaign in support is inextricably linked with support for BREXIT.
________________________________________________________________
…is in keeping with local's 'obsession' with Trump. Bigging-up Trump and BREXIT, arguably at the expense of the UK's and America's national interest, is a consistent feature in local's posts.
Nigel Farage goes to bat for candidate Trump
BREXIT too, has some unsavoury links with Russian dirty money and Putin cronies.
Again you make connections that are pure fantasy rather than a practical analysis of my stance.
I want Trump and I have often said it to disappear off to the golf course
where he can bore his acolytes to death, bringing Farage and Brexit in smacks of desperation with your paucity of argument.
I have asked repeatedly for evidence of his incitement and got a token word.
Trump has from the moment he raised his head above the political parapet been objectionable and divisive we know that.
He strangles words like you strangle fonts often producing unintelligible nonsense to gain attention.
The only thing missing from your argument now is a smattering of Godwin.
As I said direct your ire to the despots around the world who really are bent on death and destruction.
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Originally Posted by joan ofarc
The testimonies (excuses) heard so far from those who have been arrested show that they felt they were responding to the President's instructions to gather in Washington and fight for their country (as in 'If you don't fight you will have no country left'). So he called them to him (It's gonna be wild) and he stoked them up to march on the Capitol. Trump spends hours on Social media so it's not very realistic to think that he wasn't aware of the chatter around insurrection. Knowing that, he still held the rally and incited them. The fact that the entireity of the crowd didn't get involved in the riot is neither here nor there. We can't know their motivation for not getting involved (although we would like to think it was because they suddenly realised that they were going to get into something they hadn't bargained for) However, we do know the motivations of the thousands who did surround the building on all sides and tried to kill policemen because it is all over their social media. Moreover we can see and hear the motivations and actions of the hundreds who actually got into the building and who were also hunting out specific places and people.
The power that Trump has over millions of people is worrying. Local likes to call those who have seen through him from the beginning gullible but it's patently obvious that the gullibility is all on the side of Trump supporters. A continual complaint of Trump's supporters in Congress is that Democrats have hated him from the start. I think hate is too strong a word to describe the animus to Trump at first although it certainly progressed into that as each outrageous act was foisted on the country. It was more that Democrats were not bamboozled from the get-go by whatever 'charisma' Trump has. Republicans can hardly blame them for that since they said exactly the same about him before he got the nomination, all now conveniently morphed into sycophancy and adoration.
Again more nonsense, I christened Trump from the outset an emetic or vomit inducer if that's a term of endearment then you have some odd friends.
He has done precisely that to the American political system the "carrots" and bile are all over the capital.
I could not have been more accurate in my prediction of him and his presidency.
I am not obsessed with defending him more a wish for accuracy instead of hyperbole I have spent a lot of time in America and have friends ranging from organisers of anti-trump marches to hard-nosed NY businessmen who like him.
I do not know any red-necked gun-toting fans of which he has thousands who follow him.
But after all the visceral exchanges he and his detractors have provoked the stark reality is his vote is strong and I am absolutely sure he lost millions of votes with his own words.
The gullible have helped propel him forward on wave after wave of ill-thought bile what their obsession is with him defeats me.
Any comment that is even remotely objective is pounced upon as giving unwavering support without doubt I have never seen such collective insanity in my life.
He has just lost himself a second term, move on.
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Originally Posted by local
Again more nonsense, I christened Trump from the outset an emetic or vomit inducer if that's a term of endearment then you have some odd friends.
He has done precisely that to the American political system the "carrots" and bile are all over the capital.
I could not have been more accurate in my prediction of him and his presidency.
I am not obsessed with defending him more a wish for accuracy instead of hyperbole I have spent a lot of time in America and have friends ranging from organisers of anti-trump marches to hard-nosed NY businessmen who like him.
I do not know any red-necked gun-toting fans of which he has thousands who follow him.
But after all the visceral exchanges he and his detractors have provoked the stark reality is his vote is strong and I am absolutely sure he lost millions of votes with his own words.
The gullible have helped propel him forward on wave after wave of ill-thought bile what their obsession is with him defeats me.
Any comment that is even remotely objective is pounced upon as giving unwavering support without doubt I have never seen such collective insanity in my life.
He has just lost himself a second term, move on.
Weasel words
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