Keir Starmer

[Toodles McGinty]

Not enough evidence to convince me Corbyn was not anti semitic.

I have pointed out to you before antisemitism comes from the Left and Right of politics.

I'm not trying to convince you that Corbyn is anything. I'm not interested in Corbyn. I'm not talking about Corbyn at all. What has Corbyn to do with any of this?

I'm saying you'll happily support an anti-Semitic, racist, sexist, homophobic, Islamophobic psychopath if he wears a blue rosette. Because that's what you do. You support Johnson. He is all those things.

You still haven't pointed out what I've said about Boris Johnson that is slanderous.

[Hamble]

I'm not trying to convince you that Corbyn is anything. I'm not interested in Corbyn. I'm not talking about Corbyn at all. What has Corbyn to do with any of this?

I'm saying you'll happily support an anti-Semitic, racist, sexist, homophobic, Islamophobic psychopath if he wears a blue rosette. Because that's what you do. You support Johnson. He is all those things.

You still haven't pointed out what I've said about Boris Johnson that is slanderous.

?
Recap.
You vote for an anti-Semitic leader of the Labour Party because you liked his vision of Britain manifesto.

An investigation by the EHRC concluded:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1419940.html

You defended the above by using media gossip and Left wing propaganda plus a large dose of your personal character assassination
trademark to rubbish the party I voted for.

I reserve the right to sift your usual reply to the pertinent parts of a point.

[sandGroundZero]

…Constructive solutions? I like a good political discussion, but I doubt those stalking the corridors of power drop into QLocal for ideas.

If there is a constructive solution, it will come from the ground, up! The "corridors of power " are the Augean stable and the Herculean task of cleaning it is for 'the people '.

________________________________________________________________________



Why We Elect Narcissists and Sociopaths and How We Can Stop!

Discounting author /publisher's hyperbole, it might be interesting to investigate the thesis of that book you'd discovered.
What do you say, Toodles McGinty?

[local]

You cannot be that naïve.

As Lord Heseltine said, he 'waits to see the way the crowd is running and then dashes in front and says, ‘Follow me’.

Cummings orchestrated his move to Downing Street. With the Tufton Street mob and their connections to the ERG and Leave campaign. It's all public domain stuff. Easily checked.

And as I said, Cummings is Gove's buddy. Now he's back with Gove. They needed a useful idiot to push Brexit through. Who better than Johnson, a workshy narcissist who leaves the heavy lifting to others while he dresses up as 'worker of the day' and hides in fridges. He couldn't even be bothered with 5 essential Cobra meetings at the start of what was blindingly obvious was a deadly pandemic on the way.

Nobody is confused. But the stench of gullibility is overwhelming.

But we were consistently told that the crowd was running to the remain door (All easily checked)

The ERG were and are bit part players never having the power that was suggested they had.

Whatever you think of Boris he is no idiot and works hard even at risk to his health (All easily checked)

As to the fridge incident, they were trying to have a conversation away from an irritating journalist ( Again easily checked)

His non-appearance at the Cobra meetings was because he was doing something else and sent his Ministers along which is what Prime Ministers do again all easily checked.


Finally your obsession with Cummings, which hasn't served you well in the past, is again the stuff of gossip.

The problem you seem to ignore in your conspiracy ramblings is Gove only got 75 votes to Boris's 160 in the leadership election.

The party doesn't want him as leader.

You are obsessed with Johnson far beyond rational thinking he is just another in a long list of leaders and as far from perfect as any of them.

This will somehow be construed that I am a super fan, again nonsense but to those who cannot work out why he beat Corbyn by a country mile maybe politics in the real world is just too confusing anyway.

Perpetual opposition and blaming the electorate is par for the course.

[Toodles McGinty]

?
Recap.
You vote for an anti-Semitic leader of the Labour Party because you liked his vision of Britain manifesto.

An investigation by the EHRC concluded:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1419940.html

You defended the above by using media gossip and Left wing propaganda plus a large dose of your personal character assassination
trademark to rubbish the party I voted for.

I reserve the right to sift your usual reply to the pertinent parts of a point.

WTAF are you on about? What has Corbyn got to do with Johnson being anti-Semitic? You actually cannot accept, despite hard evidence, that your Johnson is a bigot, can you?

Wow. You cannot seriously excuse anti-Semitism by Johnson and other Tories in his government by pretending it didn't happen. The Jewish Chronicle. Here. And here. Gossip or left wing propaganda?

The Times of Israel. Lefty or gossip?

Michael Berkowitz, Professor of Modern Jewish History at UCL. Lefty or gossip?

Media gossip and left wing propaganda? They are public statements. That's a quote from the book that Johnson wrote. Every one of the racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, Islamophobic, sexist statements has been covered by the national press, or has actually been published by Johnson himself. In the Spectator, in the Telegraph. Business Insider is 'media gossip' and 'left wing propaganda'?

Which are the Spectator and The Telegraph? Left wing propaganda? Gossip?

We've had threads on here discussing the things he's said, such as the 'letter box' comments.

This isn't 'character assassination'. These are facts. You voted for a racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, Islamophobic, sexist narcissist.

You can cry 'Corbyn!' 'Abbott!' 'Rayner!' but it's a bull$h!t straw man fallacy. I'm not talking about any of them. They have nothing at all to do with the character of Boris Johnson.

You reserve the right to sift to the pertinent parts? The pertinent part is you've decided that there are good anti-Semites and bad anti-Semites, depending on their politics. Because the ECHR report found Labour had a case to answer to doesn't automatically cancel all anti-Semitism everywhere else.

You are actively supporting an anti-Semite racist and excuse it by saying I'm 'rubbishing the party' you voted for. It has nothing to do with your party. It's about the character of the Prime Minister of this country.

I'll ask you again, which of the statements I've made about Johnson are not true?

At least gaza had the honesty to say they know all this and simply don't care. I don't know if you are lying to yourself or simply cannot mentally or emotionally accept the facts, but this level of denial is disturbing in the extreme.

[Toodles McGinty]

But we were consistently told that the crowd was running to the remain door (All easily checked)

So he didn't write two articles, one pro-Brexit, one anti-Brexit? Polls were as close or closer than the actual result. So what is your point? He doesn't watch which way the crowd is running? How many u-turns has he done in his tenure? Sky News has it down to 11 times up to last August.

The ERG were and are bit part players never having the power that was suggested they had.

Which suggests that you have no concept of the power behind the hard right. Again, all in the public domain. Here are a few articles to start you off. Here. Here. Here. This one mentions disaster capitalists, which I know you don't think actually exists because you'd never heard of them before, but it outlines the connections.

Whatever you think of Boris he is no idiot and works hard even at risk to his health (All easily checked)

As to the fridge incident, they were trying to have a conversation away from an irritating journalist ( Again easily checked)

His non-appearance at the Cobra meetings was because he was doing something else and sent his Ministers along which is what Prime Ministers do again all easily checked.

I don't think he's an idiot. I think he takes the electorate as idiots. 'He was doing something else'? What? Give me the links. What 'something else' could possibly be more important than 5 Cobra meetings during a global pandemic? Holidays?

He hid in a fridge. He was live on TV. Video here.

Finally your obsession with Cummings, which hasn't served you well in the past, is again the stuff of gossip.

The problem you seem to ignore in your conspiracy ramblings is Gove only got 75 votes to Boris's 160 in the leadership election.

The party doesn't want him as leader.

I'm not obsessed with Cummings. I couldn't care less about Cummings. What I've said all along is that he's Gove's man. I've said Johnson's raison d'etre is to push Brexit through. The pandemic interrupted the timeline.

You are obsessed with Johnson far beyond rational thinking he is just another in a long list of leaders and as far from perfect as any of them.

Again, I'm not obsessed with Johnson. I've said he's a racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-Semite. As gazaprop says, those who voted for him don't care about that. But it is patently ridiculous to claim he is none of those things when the evidence shows he obviously is. Hence the interminable threads where whenever this is mentioned, some of his fanboys and girls go into pathological denial.

This will somehow be construed that I am a super fan, again nonsense but to those who cannot work out why he beat Corbyn by a country mile maybe politics in the real world is just too confusing anyway.

Here we go again. What has Johnson's character, which has been the subject of this thread for pages, got to do with Corbyn. Once more, any criticism of Johnson is met with cries of 'Corbyn!' 'Corbyn!' 'Corbyn!'. Corbyn is done. Gone. Irrelevant. Johnson is the PM. He's my PM. As such, I'm interested in his character. As I would be with any other PM. He is accountable. He is there to be scrutinised. He is answerable to all of us.

But I'd really rather his superfans would accept the fact that he is a racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, Islamophobic, sexist, and move on. I get that it is shameful to admit he is these things, but you simply don't care because he's YOUR racist POS. It doesn't matter to you because he's in power and that is all you care about. At least it's honest.

It is patently obvious to me why Johnson won the 2019 election. It is blindingly obvious.

Perpetual opposition and blaming the electorate is par for the course.

Perpetual opposition? Don't you mean scrutiny and accountability? I'm not going through the sleaze, the corruption, the lies, the laws broken. I'm bored of it. Hopefully an inquiry will bring those to justice. Unless of course, a snap election is called before the results are known.

Aside from that, I do appreciate that you've constructed a (albeit IMO factually inaccurate) post, that sets out actual points to discuss with the minimal amount of sneering.

[Toodles McGinty]

If there is a constructive solution, it will come from the ground, up! The "corridors of power " are the Augean stable and the Herculean task of cleaning it is for 'the people '.

Discounting author /publisher's hyperbole, it might be interesting to investigate the thesis of that book you'd discovered.
What do you say, Toodles McGinty?

Right now there is no appetite to change the status quo. I believe there will be, but until the full effects of Brexit and a full inquiry into the handling of the pandemic are made public, we are basically just grateful for the NHS and volunteers rolling out the vaccine, and this lockdown is ending. Although looking at the data, I see a repeat of the events of last year, sadly.

Outside of this forum, which again is for the greater part a Daily Mail comments section echo chamber, there is increasing unrest from younger people and the left. The current situation suits the older voter and the right. The problem is that the Labour party is a complete shambles, and the alternatives have no chance of representing us under the current electoral system.

I think the closeness of the 2017 election showed there is a willingness to turn to democratic socialism, but there was a failure of leadership and schisms in Labour that (along with an extremely hostile MSM) turned the electorate away. And the centre / left parties seem incapable of forming a progressive alliance, so all in all, we've a long way to go yet.

I think change will come, and it will be led by the public.

The book? As you say, full of hyperbole and exaggeration, but it is fairly obvious those that pursue power for the sake of power are inherently unsuitable to hold office.

The examples used are extreme, but that's how they've gone down in history. It does seem to match the populists of today, though.

[joan ofarc]

This thread can only end in tears.

[Toodles McGinty]

This thread can only end in tears.

TBF they usually end in H and I agreeing that we're bored witless by it, and agree to take it up another time.

[sandGroundZero]

Right now there is no appetite to change the status quo.
…The problem is that the Labour party is a complete shambles, and the alternatives have no chance of representing us under the current electoral system.

Passivity is the primary obstacle, here. The solution does not lie with Labour, or any other political party.

I think the closeness of the 2017 election showed there is a willingness to turn to democratic socialism, but there was a failure of leadership and schisms in Labour that (along with an extremely hostile MSM) turned the electorate away. And the centre / left parties seem incapable of forming a progressive alliance, so all in all, we've a long way to go yet. | I think change will come, and it will be led by the public.

Instead of trolling the "Daily Mail comments section echo chamber ", think of positive solutions close to home. It requires a willingness to think about seemingly improbable but plausible solutions and then putting them out for scrutiny.

The book? As you say, full of hyperbole and exaggeration, but it is fairly obvious those that pursue power for the sake of power are inherently unsuitable to hold office. | The examples used are extreme, but that's how they've gone down in history. It does seem to match the populists of today, though.

Let's get down to specifics. Forget about PM Johnson (or Gove, etc.) — where do you see "High-Conflict Personality" among 'rising stars ' of the political firmament? The trouble with Bill Eddy's hypothesis is it is too static. Personality traits are rather more diverse and a nuanced view of 'personality ' is the more usual case.

p.s. Returning to Damien Moore (or his recent predecessors), how would you describe their personalities vis-à-vis the HCP¹ triad?

1. Why We Elect Narcissists and Sociopaths and How We Can Stop! — narcisisstic; sociopathic; high-conflict — how useful is it?

[Toodles McGinty]

Passivity is the primary obstacle, here. The solution does not lie with Labur, or any other political party.


Instead of trolling the "Daily Mail comments section echo chamber ", think of positive solutions close to home. It requires a willingness to think about seemingly improbable but plausible solutions and then putting them out for scrutiny.


Let's get down to specifics. Forget about PM Johnson (or Gove, etc.) — where do you see "High-Conflict Personality" among 'rising stars ' of the political firmament? The trouble with Bill Eddy's hypothesis is it is too static. Personl traits are rather more diverse and a nuanced view of 'personality ' is the more usual case.

p.s. Returning to Damien Moore (or his recent predecessors), how would you describe their personalities vis-à-vis the HCP¹ triad?

1. Why We Elect Narcissists and Sociopaths and How We Can Stop! — narcisisstic; sociopathic; high-conflict — how useful is it?

Passivity is the key to power, be it left or right of the spectrum, surely? How does anyone shake the electorate who have voted for a government who convinced them that 99% should act in the interests of the 1%?

It would take seismic change, nothing short of revolution, to change passivity into activity. What would you suggest?

I really don't know enough about the 'rising stars' of politics to form an opinion. You'd have to be more specific, give a few examples. I know a little about those lurking just below the shadow cabinet, but I'm not privvy to their campaigning, for example.

I don't see Damien Moore as a HCP. I see him as someone who has taken an opportunity to step away from Asda into a world that can see him rise quietly and steadily through the ranks. I don't think he's Cabinet-ambitious, maybe junior minister. That's the impression I've got at the hustings, anyway. Who knows, he may do some good along the way. I think that's true of the majority of MPs.

[Hamble]

TBF they usually end in H and I agreeing that we're bored witless by it, and agree to take it up another time.

I have already given you the last rant straw man and whataboutery.

[local]

Damien probably still can't believe his luck.

[Toodles McGinty]

Damien probably still can't believe his luck.

TBF he's hardly had a lot of competition.

[Toodles McGinty]

I have already given you the last rant straw man and whataboutery.

I've just had my gums stabbed at the dentist. I've no fight left.