Middle east crisis.

[Hector]

Hamble asked:

What do you find problematic in a world that has no Jewish refugees thanks to Israel?


What a great question.

[sandGroundZero]

…A Palestinian State would not be 'secular'.
…Israel cannot be undone.The offer is peace for partition.

I am not anticipating a peaceful partition. No partition on offer is viable.

________________________________________________________________________

I am surprised that you do not support Palestinian right of return it is part of the Palestinian right of Nationhood.
What do you find problematic in a world that has no Jewish refugees thanks to Israel?

I suspect the only remote hope of a peaceful resolution is a 'One State ' secular Israel, home to Jewish, Islamic and other citizens all with full equality.

[Hamble]

I am not anticipating a peaceful partition. No partition on offer is viable.

________________________________________________________________________

I suspect the only remote hope of a peaceful resolution is a 'One State ' secular Israel, home to Jewish, Islamic and other citizens all with full equality.

What a lovely thought.
It would not work unfortunately.
Israel has to maintain security against outside takeover by Arab state conquest.

The over 2 million Arab citizens of Israel are not required to do compulsory National Service.They could not be asked to do it in a 'united' Israel.

Incidentally National Service duty is a big disadvantage to making Aliyah.


As to a solution-I think Jerusalem should be left out of all division.Capital of a United Israel important to all faiths including the left out Christian voice.
Guarded by Palestine in their holy sites Israel with theirs.

Like you I hope and dream of peace.

[sandGroundZero]

…It would not work unfortunately. | Israel has to maintain security against outside takeover by Arab state conquest.

The fact of displaced millions seeking refuge and in too many cases stirring up resentment has distorted the politics of the region and indeed, the world.

Accommodating displaced Palestinians in an equal and democratic Israel, would remove the primary source of tensions between Israel and its neighbours. Though it would be a bold step, enabling the return of Palestinians to a country in which they enjoyed equal rights with Jewish Israelis would be transformative throughout the region.

Consider also for example, the impact of a peaceful settlement on United States domestic politics where seeking to assuage the Jewish vote distorts its foreign policy. Plus, removing a source of tensions within the America.
Imagine the impact in Europe, if genuine peace were to come to Israel /Palestine.

Much of the global conflict rhetoric has been centred on Israel /Palestine. The frequent outbreaks of violent conflicts, more so. All of this could be changed, if a peaceful resolution could be found.

This is all a dreadful hangover of 19^th & 20^th century European history. It need not be this way!

[Hamble]

The fact of displaced millions seeking refuge and in too many cases stirring up resentment has distorted the politics of the region and indeed, the world.

Accommodating displaced Palestinians in an equal and democratic Israel, would remove the primary source of tensions between Israel and its neighbours. Though it would be a bold step, enabling the return of Palestinians to a country in which they enjoyed equal rights with Jewish Israelis would be transformative throughout the region.

Consider also for example, the impact of a peaceful settlement on United States domestic politics where seeking to assuage the Jewish vote distorts its foreign policy. Plus, removing a source of tensions within the America.
Imagine the impact in Europe, if genuine peace were to come to Israel /Palestine.

Much of the global conflict rhetoric has been centred on Israel /Palestine. The frequent outbreaks of violent conflicts, more so. All of this could be changed, if a peaceful resolution could be found.

This is all a dreadful hangover of 19^th & 20^th century European history. It need not be this way!

The UK invaded Iraq.Terrorist attacks on the UK stem from that problem.

The number of Palestinian refugees and their descendants with the right of return worldwide is 7.2 million.
Israel has supported The Palestinian right of Return after partition not
before.

A united Israel even in peace would not work.
Palestinians want their own state would not accept a Western democracy
particularly one based on the principles of Zionism otherwise there would be peace already.

There is always a need for improvement on equality for ethnic minorities in most countries.


Quote
"Israel has a law that prohibits incitement to racism.[5]
According to the State Department, Israel's anti-discrimination law "prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex, marital status, or sexual orientation. The law also prohibits discrimination by both government and nongovernment entities on the basis of race, religion, political beliefs, and age."

Israel is a signatory of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination treaty since 1966, and has ratified the treaty in 1979.[255] The treaty forbids any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

The Anti Defamation League states: "There is no Israeli ideology, policy or plan to segregate, persecute or mistreat its Israeli Arab citizens, nor Palestinian Arabs," it goes on in saying that "Israel is a democracy which encourages vibrant debate, which has a flourishing free press and which shares with other liberal democracies a core value: the equality of all its citizens before the law."[256]

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)."[257]

Affirmative action
In response to inequality between the Jewish and Arab populations, the Israeli government established a committee to consider, among other issues, policies of affirmative action for housing Arab citizens.[258] According to Israel advocacy group, Stand With Us, the city of Jerusalem gives Arab residents free professional advice to assist with the housing permit process and structural regulations, advice which is not available to Jewish residents on the same terms.[259][260]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel

[Polly Trott]

This

"Abandoned by governments, Palestinians rely on the kindness of strangers | Nesrine Malik | The Guardian" https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ness-strangers

[local]

It must be a hard heart that can ignore the plight of the Palestinian people.

No one doubts how bad the terrorist scum they have turned to in desperation are.

Their faith in the legitimate routes has gone the way of the many UN resolutions Israel has ignored,

into the wind.

[sandGroundZero]

.

I respect your advocacy of Israel, Hamble. I have no wish to wrangle, endlessly. I am curious, however:

…A united Israel even in peace would not work. | Palestinians want their own state would not accept a Western democracy
particularly one based on the principles of Zionism otherwise there would be peace already. …

1. Palestinians want their own state would not accept …
   You presume to know already what Palestinians (collectively) would accept. How is that?
   
   
2. Israel has supported The Palestinian right of Return after partition not before.
   I suspect you are aware that many regard successive Israeli governments' policy a canny ruse. The government's negotiating tactic creates alternating periods of stalemate and negotiations, all the while consolidating control of all the territory west of the River Jordan and supporting additional settlements on expropriated land.
   The Palestinian right of Return will become meaningless, if the trends of the past few decades continue long enough.
   
   
3. What modifications to Western democracy "based on the principles of Zionism" are you thinking of?
   As things currently are, an exclusively Jewish state appears to be the Prime principle of Zionism.

__________________________________________________________________

I am NOT hopeful of peace in Israel /Palestine. Rather, I expect a continuation of the pattern that has prevailed for most of a century. You might guess that my 'stake' in the outcome of the conflict is indirect; that is, it is limited to the social and political repercussions flowing outwards from the epicentre. I wonder what will happen if, for instance global climate change results in mass migrations, or if the eastern Mediterranean becomes so arid that it no longer supports the life-style of the current residents? At some point external circumstances will overtake the cycle of intermittent violence, negotiation, stalemate — repeat. We should all be attending to other things.

What will happen here?

[The PNP]

I wonder what will happen if, for instance global climate change results in mass migrations, or if the eastern Mediterranean becomes so arid that it no longer supports the life-style of the current residents? At some point external circumstances will overtake the cycle of intermittent violence, negotiation, stalemate — repeat.

Interesting point. With all the argie-bargie going on, it's easy to overlook the bigger picture.
The low-lying coastal areas of Israel/Palestine are on borrowed time.....Sealevel rise will be the ultimate winner in this protracted contest for living space.

[Hamble]

.

I respect your advocacy of Israel, Hamble. I have no wish to wrangle, endlessly. I am curious, however:

1. Palestinians want their own state would not accept …
   You presume to know already what Palestinians (collectively) would accept. How is that?
   
   
2. Israel has supported The Palestinian right of Return after partition not before.
   I suspect you are aware that many regard successive Israeli governments' policy a canny ruse. The government's negotiating tactic creates alternating periods of stalemate and negotiations, all the while consolidating control of all the territory west of the River Jordan and supporting additional settlements on expropriated land.
   The Palestinian right of Return will become meaningless, if the trends of the past few decades continue long enough.
   
   
3. What modifications to Western democracy "based on the principles of Zionism" are you thinking of?
   As things currently are, an exclusively Jewish state appears to be the Prime principle of Zionism.

__________________________________________________________________

I am NOT hopeful of peace in Israel /Palestine. Rather, I expect a continuation of the pattern that has prevailed for most of a century. You might guess that my 'stake' in the outcome of the conflict is indirect; that is, it is limited to the social and political repercussions flowing outwards from the epicentre. I wonder what will happen if, for instance global climate change results in mass migrations, or if the eastern Mediterranean becomes so arid that it no longer supports the life-style of the current residents? At some point external circumstances will overtake the cycle of intermittent violence, negotiation, stalemate — repeat. We should all be attending to other things.

What will happen here?

I know the Palestinian people want their own State it is on every demo placard every interview every news report.
I have never heard a Palestinian in Palestine say they wish to live in Israel.

I have heard Israeli Palestinians say they prefer to live in the Israeli State.

Hamas is in control they have the weapons.

Quote
"Aims. Hamas, as its name (Islamic Resistance Movement) implies, aims to liberate Palestine from the Israeli occupation, and transform the country into an Islamic state."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#...slamic%20state

I am undeniably biased against Radical Islamic Terrorism and the fact I have friends and relatives who live in Israel.
Forgive me.

Logically thinking how could Palestine cope with over 7.2 million possible
returns at the moment?

No modifications.

"Zionism was established with the political goal of creating a Jewish state in order to create a nation where Jews could be the majority, rather than the minority which they were in a variety of nations in the diaspora. Theodor Herzl, the ideological father of Zionism, considered Antisemitism to be an eternal feature of all societies in which Jews lived as minorities, and that only a separation could allow Jews to escape eternal persecution. "Let them give us sovereignty over a piece of the Earth's surface, just sufficient for the needs of our people, then we will do the rest!" he proclaimed exposing his plan."

A Jewish state so Jews will always be the majority.
Equally Palestine already is a majority Muslim state and must remain so.

Would the Vatican survive with a majority Muslim population?
What about Northern Ireland with majority Catholic?

sGZ
I like our discussions old bean very interesting.

[Hamble]

To answer your question about Colonial and Western interference and your map?


The area has a long history of majority rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Jerusalem

[sandGroundZero]

I know the Palestinian people want their own State it is on every demo placard every interview every news report.
…
Hamas is in control they have the weapons.
"Hamas, …aims to liberate Palestine from the Israeli occupation, and transform the country into an Islamic state."

You have indicated that Hamas is a thuggish clique oppressing Palestinians. Yet, you characterize Palestinian attitudes as if Hamas' extreme rhetoric accurately reflects Palestinians' views! By implication in your posts, Radical Islamic Terrorism is the default value of a majority of Palestinians. I anticipate you will reply denying that that it is your view. But it does seem to figure in your reasoning.

"Zionism was established with the political goal of creating a Jewish state in order to create a nation where Jews could be the majority, rather than the minority which they were in a variety of nations in the diaspora. Theodor Herzl, the ideological father of Zionism, considered Antisemitism to be an eternal feature of all societies in which Jews lived as minorities, and that only a separation could allow Jews to escape eternal persecution. "Let them give us sovereignty over a piece of the Earth's surface, just sufficient for the needs of our people, then we will do the rest!" he proclaimed exposing his plan."

Zionism has historically been a spectrum of views most of which have focused on return to Israel. How to relate to the preexisting population had been variable. Theodor Herzl evidently considered anti Jewish sentiment to be a particular phenomenon. As a citizen of one of Europe's 19^th century empires, it seems to have escaped his notice that inter-communal violence is all too common. Israeli policy since its founding has hardened Zionism as an ideology. Its premise appears reduce human societies into two categories — oppressed and oppressors — and determined that Israel must be the latter. Again, I anticipate you will dispute Israel oppresses either its Palestinian minority, or except after provocation, the population of Gaza and /or the West Bank; we see this differently. I regret you cannot seem to believe any outcome beyond perennial mutual hostility. I believe Palestinians are capable of an accommodation; 'hard lines' are perpetuated on both sides!

p.s. I've never thought of myself as an "old bean" — oy!

[Hamble]

You have indicated that Hamas is a thuggish clique oppressing Palestinians. Yet, you characterize Palestinian attitudes as if Hamas' extreme rhetoric accurately reflects Palestinians' views! By implication in your posts, Radical Islamic Terrorism is the default value of a majority of Palestinians. I anticipate you will reply denying that that it is your view. But it does seem to figure in your reasoning.



Zionism has historically been a spectrum of views most of which have focused on return to Israel. How to relate to the preexisting population had been variable. Theodor Herzl evidently considered anti Jewish sentiment to be a particular phenomenon. As a citizen of one of Europe's 19^th century empires, it seems to have escaped his notice that inter-communal violence is all too common. Israeli policy since its founding has hardened Zionism as an ideology. Its premise appears reduce human societies into two categories — oppressed and oppressors — and determined that Israel must be the latter. Again, I anticipate you will dispute Israel oppresses either its Palestinian minority, or except after provocation, the population of Gaza and /or the West Bank; we see this differently. I regret you cannot seem to believe any outcome beyond perennial mutual hostility. I believe Palestinians are capable of an accommodation; 'hard lines' are perpetuated on both sides!

p.s. I've never thought of myself as an "old bean" — oy!

Hamas is a Radical Islamic Jihadists Terrorist group.
Declared intention to occupy and kill all Jewish inhabitants of the State of Israel.

Hamas was democratically elected in Gaza.
However 'democratic' a Radical Islamic Jihadist Terrorist group can be.

Hamas has appalling record of human rights on Palestinians in Gaza.

Palestinian controlled Fatah in the rest of the region works/cooperates with Israel.
Livelihoods and coexistence plus trust in travel to Israel depend on it.

I did distinguish in earlier posts the difference between acts of war from a Jihadi group (attacking Israel from Gaza with rockets) and street fighting by civilians.

The aim of all Palestinians I accept is an independent state just as the support in the UK and World in street protesting is in support of a protest not using acts of war.

I hesitated before to broach lest you took this the wrong way.Please do not.
The State of Israel was founded on the agreement that it shall be a Jewish State in which all citizens should be free to practice their religion
in coexistence.
To undo that is to deny the right of Israel to exist.

History has to accept idealism did not work out.
All sides agree a 2 state solution is the only workable solution.
Israel does not want partition the Palestinians do.

I am siding with the Palestinians on this as the fairest option and(in my view) safest long term for Israel.

[sandGroundZero]

…The aim of all Palestinians I accept is an independent state just as the support in the UK and World in street protesting is in support of a protest not using acts of war.
…The State of Israel was founded on the agreement that it shall be a Jewish State in which all citizens should be free to practice their religion in coexistence.
To undo that is to deny the right of Israel to exist.
…All sides agree a 2 state solution is the only workable solution.
…Israel does not want partition the Palestinians do.
I am siding with the Palestinians on this as the fairest option and(in my view) safest long term for Israel.

For nearly three decades, the so-called two-state solution has dominated discussions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But the idea of two states for two peoples in the territory both occupy was always an illusion, and in recent years, reality has set in. The two-state solution is dead. And good riddance: it never offered a realistic path forward. The time has come for all interested parties to instead consider the only alternative with any chance of delivering lasting peace: equal rights for Israelis and Palestinians in a single shared state.

It has been possible to see this moment coming for quite a while. As he tried to rescue what had become known as “the peace process,” U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry told Congress that the two-state solution had one to two years left before it would no longer be viable. That was six years ago. Resolution 2334, which the UN Security Council passed with U.S. consent in late 2016, called for “salvaging the two-state solution” by demanding a number of steps, including an immediate end to Israeli settlement building in the occupied territories. That was three years ago. And since then, Israel has continued to build and expand settlements.

— There Will Be a One-State Solution | But What Kind of State Will It Be?

Israel’s controversial separation barrier shows
the Israeli settlement of Maale Adumim in the occupied West Bank.
Ahmad Gharabli/AFP via Getty Images

[Hamble]

Israel’s controversial separation barrier shows
the Israeli settlement of Maale Adumim in the occupied West Bank.
Ahmad Gharabli/AFP via Getty Images

'One State' thinking is promoting dialogue by violence.

If one accepts the history of the region has mostly been controlled by conquering forces or majority religious rule then each side is rewarded by population and land enlargement.

The Israeli's will defend more hit harder when attacked.
They will build on land in Palestinian areas because what's the point if the plan is no partition?

Hamas will be kept in power on the promise they give to the Palestinian people to obliterate Israel and its population.
No incentive to peace in that.


This link shows changing population/Governance in Palestine
a time when Jews were Palestinian too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...stine_(region)