Middle east crisis.

[Hamble]

A minimally viable West Bank requires Israel to evacuate all its settlements. Are you ready to countenance that?


Who is doing the "we told you so"?

“The last paradox is that the tale of Palestine from the beginning until today is a simple story of colonialism and dispossession, yet the world treats it as a multifaceted and complex story—hard to understand and even harder to solve.” — Noam Chomsky, On Palestine

Yes -evacuate settlements.
Any West Bank division needs to be linear.
Snake divided areas are harder to protect.

Disagree on colonialism and dispossession!
It is anti-Semitic to deny the right of Israel to exist.
Anyway if you are going to be picky on 'whose land' colonial dispossessors in the Ottoman Empire have more claim.

It is a simple story of 'one side wants the other side dead!'
Hamas have issued a brochure on their intentions fgs!

Iran has declared its intention to obliterate the State of Israel.

The Far Left believes giving Palestine a state will solve the Middle East problem.

I am for a two State solution giving Israel the right to defend her self as independent country free of the shackles of civil war and far left hypocrisy.

[sandGroundZero]

…
It is a simple story of 'one side wants the other side dead!'
Hamas have issued a brochure on their intentions fgs!
Iran has declared its intention to obliterate the State of Israel.
The Far Left believes giving Palestine a state will solve the Middle East problem.
I am for a two State solution giving Israel the right to defend her self as independent country free of the shackles of civil war and far left hypocrisy.

It is not the demands of Hamas that must be met. Israel must make a majority of aggrieved, rational and sensible Palestinians an acceptable offer — that is not remotely the same thing.
Hypocrisy is in successive Israeli governments' failure to do that; Israel's failure to acknowledge the injustice inherent in its expropriation of the land and the expulsion of the preexisting population.

United Nations

Israel has cynically promoted the war on terror and 'terrorist ' enemies. The U.S. and the European idealists creating the post 1939-1945 institutions including the United Nations mostly acquiesced. Their own failure to rescue Jews from 1933, or their clear unwillingness to accommodate Jewish refugees after the war the so-called Western powers share in the injustice inflicted upon the Palestinians. The state of Israel as it currently is, relies heavily on what you might characterize as historical guilt. As happens, the influence of post WWII idealism is waning; what will happen in future as other (natural, diplomatic or military) forces exert influence is anyone's guess!

__________________________________________________________________

Disagree on colonialism and dispossession!
It is anti-Semitic to deny the right of Israel to exist.
Anyway if you are going to be picky on 'whose land' colonial dispossessors in the Ottoman Empire have more claim.

Jewish refugees from Europe and elsewhere are in Israel /Palestine. A definiition of anti-Semitism so broad that it precludes criticism of Zionism as a political principle is counter-productive in the long run.

You alluded to the Ottoman Empire, Hamble, It included a claim to ultimate rule, but it did not dispossess an entire population. Ottoman rulers had long periods of disinterested tolerance of local self-rule. It was more inclusive than exclusive.

The resolution of hatred and violence in Palestine will only come from an inclusive settlement for all elements of the population. That is, peace will only come with the establishment of a single state in which Jews and non-Jews live in complete equality.

“Not all evils can be rectified, but ongoing evils surely should stop.”

— Noam Chomsky, On Palestine

[Hamble]

It is not the demands of Hamas that must be met. Israel must make a majority of aggrieved, rational and sensible Palestinians an acceptable offer — that is not remotely the same thing.
Hypocrisy is in successive Israeli governments' failure to do that; Israel's failure to acknowledge the injustice inherent in its expropriation of the land and the expulsion of the preexisting population.

United Nations

Israel has cynically promoted the war on terror and 'terrorist ' enemies. The U.S. and the European idealists creating the post 1939-1945 institutions including the United Nations mostly acquiesced. Their own failure to rescue Jews from 1933, or their clear unwillingness to accommodate Jewish refugees after the war the so-called Western powers share in the injustice inflicted upon the Palestinians. The state of Israel as it currently is, relies heavily on what you might characterize as historical guilt. As happens, the influence of post WWII idealism is waning; what will happen in future as other (natural, diplomatic or military) forces exert influence is anyone's guess!

__________________________________________________________________

Jewish refugees from Europe and elsewhere are in Israel /Palestine. A definiition of anti-Semitism so broad that it precludes criticism of Zionism as a political principle is counter-productive in the long run.

You alluded to the Ottoman Empire, Hamble, It included a claim to ultimate rule, but it did not dispossess an entire population. Ottoman rulers had long periods of disinterested tolerance of local self-rule. It was more inclusive than exclusive.

The resolution of hatred and violence in Palestine will only come from an inclusive settlement for all elements of the population. That is, peace will only come with the establishment of a single state in which Jews and non-Jews live in complete equality.

You have yet to reply to which Israeli Laws for equality you mean?

I find it odd that you are so anti Zionism yet so accepting of political Islam states.

Israel has not 'dispossessed' an entire population over 2 million Israeli Arabs live in Israel.
Israeli Jews were evicted by the Israeli Government from Gaza.
Large parts of Israel are no go areas for Jews.

Are you promoting the lie Israel was 'given' to Jews by British Colonials in 1948?

Quote
"British Mandate period

The Ottoman surrender of Jerusalem to the British, 9 December 1917
The British were victorious over the Ottomans in the Middle East during World War I and victory in Palestine was a step towards dismemberment of that empire. General Sir Edmund Allenby, commander-in-chief of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force, entered Jerusalem on foot out of respect for the Holy City, on 11 December 1917.[47]

By the time General Allenby took Jerusalem from the Ottomans in 1917, the new city was a patchwork of neighborhoods and communities, each with a distinct ethnic character. This continued under British rule, as the New City of Jerusalem grew outside the old city walls, and the Old City of Jerusalem gradually emerged as little more than an impoverished older neighborhood. Sir Ronald Storrs, the first British military governor of the city, issued a town planning order requiring new buildings in the city to be faced with sandstone and thus preserving some of the overall look of the city even as it grew.[48] The Pro-Jerusalem Council[49] played an important role in the outlook of the British-ruled city. During the 1930s, two important new institutions, the Hadassah Medical Center and Hebrew University were founded on Jerusalem's Mount Scopus.

British rule marked, however, a period of growing unrest. Arab resentment at British rule and the influx of Jewish immigrants (by 1948 one in six Jews in Palestine lived in Jerusalem) boiled over in anti-Jewish riots in Jerusalem in 1920, 1929, and the 1930s that caused significant damage and several deaths. The Jewish community organized self-defense forces in response to the 1920 Nebi Musa riots and later disturbances; while other Jewish groups carried out bombings and attacks against the British, especially in response to suspected complicity with the Arabs and restrictions on immigration during World War II imposed by the White Paper of 1939.[citation needed] The level of violence continued to escalate throughout the 1930s and 1940s. In July 1946 members of the underground Zionist group Irgun blew up a part of the King David Hotel, where the British forces were temporarily located, an act which led to the death of 91 civilians.

On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly approved a plan which would partition Mandatory Palestine into two states: one Jewish and one Arab. Each state would be composed of three major sections, linked by extraterritorial crossroads, plus an Arab enclave at Jaffa. Expanded Jerusalem would fall under international control as a Corpus Separatum."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jerusalem



We are back to two state solution as neither side can tolerate being governed by the other.
Palestine refuses to acknowledge 'The State of Israel'.

The partition settlement from Hamas is not just land no Jews can set foot in asking for an air and sea port.




Quote
"By the time the Ottoman Empire rose to power in the 14th and 15th centuries, there had been Jewish communities established throughout the region. The Ottoman Empire lasted from the early 14th century until the end of World War I and covered parts of Southeastern Europe, Anatolia, and much of the Middle East. The experience of Jews in the Ottoman Empire is particularly significant because the region "provided a principal place of refuge for Jews driven out of western Europe by massacres and persecution".

At the time of the Ottoman conquests, Anatolia had already been home to communities of Byzantine Jews. The Ottoman Empire became a safe haven for Iberian Jews fleeing persecution.

The First and Second Aliyah brought an increased Jewish presence to Ottoman Palestine. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...Ottoman_Empire



A reminder of the origin of the name 'Palestine'.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine

[sandGroundZero]

1. You have yet to reply to which Israeli Laws for equality you mean?
2. I find it odd that you are so anti Zionism yet so accepting of political Islam states.
3. Israel has not 'dispossessed' an entire population over 2 million Israeli Arabs live in Israel.
   Israeli Jews were evicted by the Israeli Government from Gaza.
   Large parts of Israel are no go areas for Jews.
4. Are you promoting the lie Israel was 'given' to Jews by British Colonials in 1948?

1. Basic Laws: Israel - The Nation State of the Jewish People
   
   _______________________________________________________________
   1. The State of Israel
      1. Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people in which the state of Israel was established.
      2. The state of Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people, in which it actualizes its natural, religious, and historical right for self-determination.
      3. The actualization of the right of national self-determination in the state of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
         etc.
   _______________________________________________________________
   …as per #109 & 111, Thread: Free Speech …, as one prominent example
   
   
2. You seem to identify Zionism with the state of Israel. Zionism is a nationalistic political ideology. Israel came to exist because of Zionism and Zionists, but that is not to say that Zionism and the State of Israel are the same thing.
   It is wrong to assume my attitude to "political Islam states " is one of acceptance. I have been advocating an Israel /Palestine state with equal democratic and civil rights for all citizens. Clearly, that is modelled on liberal, secular principles and NOT "Islamic " principles.
   
   
3. Large numbers of Palestinians were encouraged to flee the violence in 1947/48 and subsequently denied return to their homes. Villages were demolished and the land given to Jewish people — the details appeared in articles linked in this or the other [Free Speech …] thread; examples Jewish supremacy …This is aparteid and A Jewish case for Palestinian refugee return
   
   
4. I do not know where you got that idea. My view is that a long sequence of political, social and cultural events culminated in the creation of Israel.
   A strand of Zionist thinking positing an exclusively Jewish state prevailed over a secular, accommodating state for Jews and others.

[Hamble]

1. Basic Laws: Israel - The Nation State of the Jewish People
   
   _______________________________________________________________
   1. The State of Israel
      1. Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people in which the state of Israel was established.
      2. The state of Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people, in which it actualizes its natural, religious, and historical right for self-determination.
      3. The actualization of the right of national self-determination in the state of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
         etc.
   _______________________________________________________________
   …as per #109 & 111, Thread: Free Speech …, as one prominent example
   
   
2. You seem to identify Zionism with the state of Israel. Zionism is a nationalistic political ideology. Israel came to exist because of Zionism and Zionists, but that is not to say that Zionism and the State of Israel are the same thing.
   It is wrong to assume my attitude to "political Islam states " is one of acceptance. I have been advocating an Israel /Palestine state with equal democratic and civil rights for all citizens. Clearly, that is modelled on liberal, secular principles and NOT "Islamic " principles.
   
   
3. Large numbers of Palestinians were encouraged to flee the violence in 1947/48 and subsequently denied return to their homes. Villages were demolished and the land given to Jewish people — the details appeared in articles linked in this or the other [Free Speech …] thread; examples Jewish supremacy …This is aparteid and A Jewish case for Palestinian refugee return
   
   
4. I do not know where you got that idea. My view is that a long sequence of political, social and cultural events culminated in the creation of Israel.
   A strand of Zionist thinking positing an exclusively Jewish state prevailed over a secular, accommodating state for Jews and others.

1.Accepted.

2.In Israel Zionism and the State of Israel cannot be separated as it can for Jews or Zionists (or both) in other countries.

The UN supported the creation of Israel
Quote
"The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a proposal by the United Nations, which recommended a partition of Mandatory Palestine at the end of the British Mandate. On 29 November 1947, the UN General Assembly adopted the Plan as Resolution 181 (II).[2]

The resolution recommended the creation of independent Arab and Jewish States and a Special International Regime for the city of Jerusalem. The Partition Plan, a four-part document attached to the resolution, provided for the termination of the Mandate, the progressive withdrawal of British armed forces and the delineation of boundaries between the two States and Jerusalem. Part I of the Plan stipulated that the Mandate would be terminated as soon as possible and the United Kingdom would withdraw no later than 1 August 1948. The new states would come into existence two months after the withdrawal, but no later than 1 October 1948. The Plan sought to address the conflicting objectives and claims of two competing movements, Palestinian nationalism and Jewish nationalism, or Zionism.[3][4] The Plan also called for Economic Union between the proposed states, and for the protection of religious and minority rights.

The Plan, devised in cooperation with Jewish organizations, was accepted by the Jewish Agency for Palestine, despite dissatisfaction over territorial limits set on the proposed Jewish State.[5][6] Arab leaders and governments rejected it[7] and indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division,[8] arguing that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN Charter which granted people the right to decide their own destiny.[6][9]

Immediately after adoption of the Resolution by the General Assembly, a civil war broke out[10] and the plan was not implemented.[11"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._for_Palestine

3.War is horrific for all concerned and on both sides.

4. Again the UK is not a secular state so it is unreasonable to make that a goal for Israel.

[sandGroundZero]

1. Accepted.
2. In Israel Zionism and the State of Israel cannot be separated as it can for Jews or Zionists (or both) in other countries. | The UN supported the creation of Israel
3. War is horrific for all concerned and on both sides.
4. Again the UK is not a secular state so it is unreasonable to make that a goal for Israel.

1. Then you agree, Israel is constitutionally unequal.
   
   
2. "Zionism and the State of Israel cannot be separated …"
   
   …only because you choose not to separate them.
   
   The UN sanctioned Partition Plan did not come into effect because neither side accepted partition:
   
   In a letter to his son in October 1937, Ben-Gurion explained that
   partition would be a first step to "possession of the land as a whole".
   
   
   
3. Zionist hard-liners were prepared to fight a war. Neighbouring states and others rejected the Partition Plan; some Arab League stated intervened. But it was non-combatants who fled, of were forcibly displaced and their return was blocked in spite of objections and international conventions to the contrary.
   
   
4. Defining the UK "not a secular state" is simply wrong. Your quibbling sounds desperate.
   I do not expect any more or less in terms of good governance for Israel /Palestine than for other countries.

[Hamble]

1. Then you agree, Israel is constitutionally unequal.
   
   
2. "Zionism and the State of Israel cannot be separated …"
   
   …only because you choose not to separate them.
   
   The UN sanctioned Partition Plan did not come into effect because neither side accepted partition:
   
   In a letter to his son in October 1937, Ben-Gurion explained that
   partition would be a first step to "possession of the land as a whole".
   
   
   
3. Zionist hard-liners were prepared to fight a war. Neighbouring states and others rejected the Partition Plan; some Arab League stated intervened. But it was non-combatants who fled, of were forcibly displaced and their return was blocked in spite of objections and international conventions to the contrary.
   
   
4. Defining the UK "not a secular state" is simply wrong. Your quibbling sounds desperate.
   I do not expect any more or less in terms of good governance for Israel /Palestine than for other countries.

?
1.I asked you which laws you think discriminate against Arab/Palestinian's in Israel you still have not replied.

2.Yes Israel as a whole is constitutionally 'unequal'.
Israel follows a Western Democracy Palestine follows Sharia Law.

"The Plan, devised in cooperation with Jewish organizations, was accepted by the Jewish Agency for Palestine, despite dissatisfaction over territorial limits set on the proposed Jewish State.[5][6] Arab leaders and governments rejected it[7] and indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division,[8] arguing that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN Charter which granted people the right to decide their own destiny.[6][9]"
...................Arabs in Palestine
Haj Amin al-Husseini said in March 1948 to an interviewer from the Jaffa daily Al Sarih that the Arabs did not intend merely to prevent partition but "would continue fighting until the Zionists were Annihilated."[115]

3. Israel agreed.

4 You are against partition.
Against Zionism
Against Sharia Law for Jews(I fervently hope).
For a secular State and Western Democracy as long as it is not in Israel?


"Secularism also has various guises that may coincide with some degree of official religiosity. In the United Kingdom, the head of state is still required to take the Coronation Oath enacted in 1688, swearing to maintain the Protestant Reformed religion and to preserve the established Church of England."

You ignore all anti-Semitic rants from Hamas and Iran clearly stating intention to murder Israeli Jews and destroy the State.

[sandGroundZero]

1.I asked you which laws you think discriminate against Arab/Palestinian's in Israel you still have not replied.

Basic Law: Israel – The Nation State of the Jewish People

…cited in post #229 and elsewhere.

It was rather pointless except for reiterating for anyone who is watching that Israel is a state exclusively for its Jewish residents.
Clearly you do not recognize that as discriminatory; though I do not know how you can believe otherwise!

[Hamble]

Basic Law: Israel – The Nation State of the Jewish People

…cited in post #229 and elsewhere.

It was rather pointless except for reiterating for anyone who is watching that Israel is a state exclusively for its Jewish residents.
Clearly you do not recognize that as discriminatory; though I do not know how you can believe otherwise!

I thought you understood the demographics of Israel

In 2019, the official number of Arab residents in Israel was 1,890,000 people, representing 21% of Israel's population.[4] This figure includes 209,000 Arabs (14% of the Israeli Arab population) in East Jerusalem, also counted in the Palestinian statistics, although 98 percent of East Jerusalem Palestinians have either Israeli residency or Israeli citizenship.

Gaza
Muslim 98.0 - 99.0% (predominantly Sunni), Christian <1.0%, other, unaffiliated, unspecified <1.0% (2012 est.)
note: dismantlement of Israeli settlements was completed in September 2005; Gaza has had no Jewish population since then

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel


The Law is equal for citizens in Israel.
Everyone agrees discrimination of Muslim minorities does happen.That unfortunately is the same worldwide.

[sandGroundZero]

I thought you understood the demographics of Israel
…
The Law is equal for citizens in Israel. …

Precisely the problem. Discriminatory law is baked-in to the Jewish exclusive state. If you reflect on other countries emulating an ethno-nationalist program, you would probably agree they are creating discord and inequity. Zionist thought promotes a dangerous Israeli exceptionalism.

[Hamble]

Precisely the problem. Discriminatory law is baked-in to the Jewish exclusive state. If you reflect on other countries emulating an ethno-nationalist program, you would probably agree they are creating discord and inequity. Zionist thought promotes a dangerous Israeli exceptionalism.

Palestine after partition will be a religious Nationalist endeavour like Eire.
I support Palestinian exceptionalism in Statehood.

Israel is not alone in having a majority ethno religious majority though it is the only Jewish State in the World.

https://www.nationsonline.org/onewor...-countries.htm

That is your opinion.
Zionist thought has a Western Democracy unlike Gaza unfortunate enough to have Radical Islamic Jihad.

[Hamble]

Quote
"Pan-Islamism

The Hamas flag
In a later repetition of these developments, the pan-Islamic sentiments embodied by the Muslim Brotherhood and other religious movements, would similarly provoke conflict with Palestinian nationalism. About 90% of Palestinians are Sunni Muslims, and while never absent from the rhetoric and thinking of the secularist PLO factions, Islamic political doctrines, or Islamism, didn't become a large part of the Palestinian movement until the 1980s rise of Hamas.

By early Islamic thinkers, nationalism had been viewed as an ungodly ideology, substituting "the nation" for God as an object of worship and reverence. The struggle for Palestine was viewed exclusively through a religious prism, as a struggle to retrieve Muslim land and the holy places of Jerusalem. However, later developments, not least as a result of Muslim sympathy with the Palestinian struggle, led to many Islamic movements accepting nationalism as a legitimate ideology. In the case of Hamas, the Palestinian offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, Palestinian nationalism has almost completely fused with the ideologically pan-Islamic sentiments originally held by the Islamists."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_nationalism

[sandGroundZero]

…Israel is not alone in having a majority ethno religious majority though it is the only Jewish State in the World.

A democracy for Jews, such as it is. However, privileging Jews over others is akin to 'Jim Crow ' measures in the USA.

…Zionist thought has a Western Democracy unlike Gaza unfortunate enough to have Radical Islamic Jihad.

You contrast Israel with Gaza but Gaza is not a nation, it is a captive population contained by Israel's military. A benign form of government cannot flourish in such circumstances.

Your frame of reference is to characterize West Bank and Gaza as perennially maladministered, as if Israel had nothing to do with it!

[Hamble]

A democracy for Jews, such as it is. However, privileging Jews over others is akin to 'Jim Crow ' measures in the USA.



You contrast Israel with Gaza but Gaza is not a nation, it is a captive population contained by Israel's military. A benign form of government cannot flourish in such circumstances.

Your frame of reference is to characterize West Bank and Gaza as perennially maladministered, as if Israel had nothing to do with it!

Palestine rejected Statehood.

Quote
"JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Arabs made a “mistake” by rejecting a 1947 U.N. proposal that would have created a Palestinian state alongside the nascent Israel, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said in an interview aired on Friday."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-p...79R64320111028


The situation is truly awful between Hamas the P.A and Israel.
A horrible vicious circle of violence.

[Styx]

Methinks it's time for this...

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Never Again