Divided England

[Desert Region]

I don't need much more of an argument I have no need to explore mine or anyone else's lexicon to gain attention with a coterie.

I make a very very simple point about vacuous allegations against people and by necessity their staff and other civil servants involved in the processes that are alleged to be corrupt, before any charges or convictions.

You seem to have fallen in line that this is ok and my defending other members of the "team" you now find is an allegation of corruption.

Aren't you getting mixed up with your responses?

Are you really trying to make out that a single Minister can conduct these allegedly corrupt purchases from start to finish on their own?


That members of their team are so stupid they wouldn't know of mysterious orders and payments leaving their systems?

That me pointing this blindingly obvious point out is somehow now my allegation of wrongdoing.

.



You have walked yourself into an illogical rabbit hole with the fluffle.



I find them guilty of nothing until proven.

You're outnumbered on this thread with no support because no-one agrees with you. People did agree with many of your early posts but at the point after the PPE topic came to the fore, during which you began smearing the NHS, people only challenged your posts and have continued to do so.

Looking at your post above it's barely worth getting (back) into. You're just mainly repeating the same pointless points and dealt-with thoughts, while chucking in the occasional new bit that serves only to highlight that you're overreaching yourself.

Regards the notion of aligning with or joining coteries or teams, I'm minded of the last line of your post #142. When did you start using the lexicon and tactics of the radical left? Or, rather and instead, should that be: the lexicon and tactics of rabid anti-vaxxers?

[Desert Region]

Although the word 'scum' was worthy of an entire thread.

It's back in the news again this evening:

Angela Rayner 'unreservedly' apologises for Conservative 'scum' comments

Labour's deputy leader Angela Rayner has "unreservedly" apologised for comments made at her party's conference where she called Conservatives "scum".

The MP initially stood by her remarks saying she would say sorry when the PM apologised for his own past comments.

However, in a Facebook post, Ms Rayner said she had since reflected on "our political debate" and the "abuse that now seems to feature all too often".

She added that in the future she would be "more careful" about her language.

Her comments came after a man was sentenced for sending a threatening email telling her to "watch your back and kids".

Benjamin Iliffe, of Cambridgeshire was sentenced to 15 weeks in prison, suspended for 18 months.

Ms Rayner said threats she had recently received were "terrifying and explicit" and had had a "devastating impact on me, my children and others close to me".

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer said it was "shocking and appalling" that Ms Rayner had been subject to threats.

"Solidarity to Angela from me and the whole party," he added.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59081482

[Toodles McGinty]

It's back in the news again this evening:

Angela Rayner 'unreservedly' apologises for Conservative 'scum' comments

Labour's deputy leader Angela Rayner has "unreservedly" apologised for comments made at her party's conference where she called Conservatives "scum".

I think she was right with her comments about Johnson but she's done the decent thing.

It goes back to my original post. The vile rhetoric that enabled the hate speech of the likes of Tommy Robinson's followers, the rise in hate crime towards foreigners, British born in other countries and the LGBT+ community since 2015 all stems back to disgraceful lies perpetrated by the Leave party. The posters of immigrants, the lie that millions of Turks are coming to live here and of course, the lie that this is something to be feared. Gems such as 'The EU want to stop your cuppa' or 'the EU are stopping us from saving dolphins'. Propaganda.

The jingoistic bull that motivated Jo Cox's murderer. It's been proven over and over that AI can see the patterns, see the interactions, and push exactly the right buttons. Point you to a video that entrenches and feeds that bit of xenophobia.

It continues today with the likes of Farage on his far right channel stating that 'our best allies speak English'. Of course, with a German wife, this is simply his way of staying in the limelight, feeding the hate of the knuckle draggers. It keeps him on screen, his idiot followers believe it. The Gammon become angrier, the political tribes more divided. It's enabled Brexit and the Britannia Unchained Idiocracy, motivated people to vote against their better interests.

It is quite incredible, the amount of propaganda we're subjected to. As I mentioned the next episode in 'we're leading you by the nose' will be a war against French fishermen, who will then block ports, and eventually Johnson will 'save Christmas' by solving a problem he created. Express headlines will proclaim 'Boris Beat The Old Enemy'. Gammon cheers. Xenophobia dug in a little deeper. Brains washed a bit more .I'd stake good money on it.

I hope that Rayner's apology goes some way to stopping the rhetoric of hate. But I'd wager her opponents will just see her as weak.

And on it rumbles.

[Desert Region]

I think she was right with her comments about Johnson but she's done the decent thing.

It goes back to my original post. The vile rhetoric that enabled the hate speech of the likes of Tommy Robinson's followers, the rise in hate crime towards foreigners, British born in other countries and the LGBT+ community since 2015 all stems back to disgraceful lies perpetrated by the Leave party. The posters of immigrants, the lie that millions of Turks are coming to live here and of course, the lie that this is something to be feared. Gems such as 'The EU want to stop your cuppa' or 'the EU are stopping us from saving dolphins'. Propaganda.

The jingoistic bull that motivated Jo Cox's murderer. It's been proven over and over that AI can see the patterns, see the interactions, and push exactly the right buttons. Point you to a video that entrenches and feeds that bit of xenophobia.

It continues today with the likes of Farage on his far right channel stating that 'our best allies speak English'. Of course, with a German wife, this is simply his way of staying in the limelight, feeding the hate of the knuckle draggers. It keeps him on screen, his idiot followers believe it. The Gammon become angrier, the political tribes more divided. It's enabled Brexit and the Britannia Unchained Idiocracy, motivated people to vote against their better interests.

It is quite incredible, the amount of propaganda we're subjected to. As I mentioned the next episode in 'we're leading you by the nose' will be a war against French fishermen, who will then block ports, and eventually Johnson will 'save Christmas' by solving a problem he created. Express headlines will proclaim 'Boris Beat The Old Enemy'. Gammon cheers. Xenophobia dug in a little deeper. Brains washed a bit more .I'd stake good money on it.

I hope that Rayner's apology goes some way to stopping the rhetoric of hate. But I'd wager her opponents will just see her as weak.

And on it rumbles.

I think Angela Rayner was always going to have to eventually apologise complete with no ifs, buts or reservations.


To some extent I do agree with your main-body analysis, though I note it's a one-sided analysis.

That it's from one perspective is, I suppose, fitting, given the title of this thread.

[Hamble]

I think she was right with her comments about Johnson but she's done the decent thing.

It goes back to my original post. The vile rhetoric that enabled the hate speech of the likes of Tommy Robinson's followers, the rise in hate crime towards foreigners, British born in other countries and the LGBT+ community since 2015 all stems back to disgraceful lies perpetrated by the Leave party. The posters of immigrants, the lie that millions of Turks are coming to live here and of course, the lie that this is something to be feared. Gems such as 'The EU want to stop your cuppa' or 'the EU are stopping us from saving dolphins'. Propaganda.

The jingoistic bull that motivated Jo Cox's murderer. It's been proven over and over that AI can see the patterns, see the interactions, and push exactly the right buttons. Point you to a video that entrenches and feeds that bit of xenophobia.

It continues today with the likes of Farage on his far right channel stating that 'our best allies speak English'. Of course, with a German wife, this is simply his way of staying in the limelight, feeding the hate of the knuckle draggers. It keeps him on screen, his idiot followers believe it. The Gammon become angrier, the political tribes more divided. It's enabled Brexit and the Britannia Unchained Idiocracy, motivated people to vote against their better interests.

It is quite incredible, the amount of propaganda we're subjected to. As I mentioned the next episode in 'we're leading you by the nose' will be a war against French fishermen, who will then block ports, and eventually Johnson will 'save Christmas' by solving a problem he created. Express headlines will proclaim 'Boris Beat The Old Enemy'. Gammon cheers. Xenophobia dug in a little deeper. Brains washed a bit more .I'd stake good money on it.

I hope that Rayner's apology goes some way to stopping the rhetoric of hate. But I'd wager her opponents will just see her as weak.

And on it rumbles.

I do not see her as weak rather shamed for her comments when another MP was murdered.

I very much regret AR was subjected to such appalling abuse.
Good she did the right thing.

[Stuartli]

I think she was right with her comments about Johnson but she's done the decent thing.

She should have done "the decent thing" in the first place and never made such a crass comment.

If the positions had been reversed and Johnson had made a similar comment about her, all Hell would have broken loose on the Opposition benches. It would have been rightly so.

[Toodles McGinty]

I think Angela Rayner was always going to have to eventually apologise complete with no ifs, buts or reservations.


To some extent I do agree with your main-body analysis, though I note it's a one-sided analysis.

That it's from one perspective is, I suppose, fitting, given the title of this thread.

Yes, I can see how that seems one sided.

The toxicity in English politics started in 2015. Similarly with US politics, which isn't surprising given that the same people brought the world Brexit and Trump. As the Facebook whistleblower said yesterday, social media sites push you to extremes. You look at a left leaning article, it pushes you to extreme left articles, you look at a page on healthy eating, it pushes you to pages on anorexia.

So yes, 6 years ago, it was one-sided. The propaganda machine in favour of Trump and Brexit was firing on all cylinders. Incredibly effective. The opposite side was led by Cameron. We all know how effective he was. But it isn't really about that. That happened, it's done with.

What remains is that toxicity. The extreme views that led to the storming of the Capitol last January. The death of Jo Cox. Enabling white supremacists. Those with opposing views are just as vehement. Not to the point of killing MPs or driving cars into crowds, but the depth of feeling is there. Enabling extremes. Even the anti-vax movement has grown from a few people deciding they don't want a jab, to threats to teachers, death threats to doctors and nurses. Storming buildings. What kind of country has headlines where judges are the 'enemy of the people'? It seems insanity reigns.

Back to Rayner's comment: “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile … banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian … piece of scum".

What kind of place have we become that a senior member of the Opposition says that publicly?

What kind of place have we become where a person says homophobic, racist, misogynistic statements and then becomes or remains PM?

Maybe Rayner is right, a 'banana republic'. I imagine there will be a headline soon that celebrates there being so many turds floating in the sea, the asylum seekers can't get in.

Insanity reigns.

[Toodles McGinty]

She should have done "the decent thing" in the first place and never made such a crass comment.

If the positions had been reversed and Johnson had made a similar comment about her, all Hell would have broken loose on the Opposition benches. It would have been rightly so.

Maybe. But as I said in my previous post, how can someone make homophobic, racist and misogynistic comments in the first place, then get anywhere near power?

What kind of country not only allows this, but openly encourages it?

I'm not defending Rayner, and I'm glad she's been the bigger person, but it didn't just pop out of nowhere, for no reason, did it?

[Hamble]

Maybe. But as I said in my previous post, how can someone make homophobic, racist and misogynistic comments in the first place, then get anywhere near power?

What kind of country not only allows this, but openly encourages it?

I'm not defending Rayner, and I'm glad she's been the bigger person, but it didn't just pop out of nowhere, for no reason, did it?

It was Boris or Corbyn.
Brexit or stalemate.
Educated or uneducated.
Ignoramus or anti-Semite.

[Toodles McGinty]

It was Boris or Corbyn.
Brexit or stalemate.
Educated or uneducated.
Ignoramus or anti-Semite.

I agree with the first line. To a degree.

The rest, for me, Brexit or remain in the EU, I don't know what education has to do with anything, I don't think Johnson is an ignoramus, nor do I think Corbyn is an anti-Semite.

Corbyn or Johnson. If Brexit wasn't an issue, I think Corbyn would have won the 2017 election. Johnson wouldn't have featured and I think that Hunt or Gove would have been LOTO. Hence the ramping up of the media character assassination of Corbyn in the years following. It was too close for comfort for some.

Even though the last referendum had been run, there was the risk of a third referendum. So the divide had to be deepened. And it has been.

With most elections, we might not like the opposite number, the opposing party. We grumble, we moan, but we generally accept the choice of the majority. We don't generally think the 'others' will destroy the country. We don't think they are evil.

But the powers that be, the billionaires, those most affected by EU tax laws etc, couldn't have a grudging acceptance. They needed 'divide and rule'. They needed a chasm between 'us' and 'them' to be certain. Divided, we're weak. Divided, we won't come together and decide that this isn't what we were promised. So instead of bringing unity, they took issues like immigration, freedom of movement, issues that very few were concerned about until 2015, and poked at those issues so they became massive. And of course, lies upon lies upon lies. And offer someone like Johnson to lead one tribe against the other. Jocular 'man of the people', promising to get things done, promising to defeat the other 'tribe'. Populism claims to speak to 'the people'. Populism must claim to speak on behalf of ordinary people. These ordinary people must stand in opposition to an elite establishment which stops them from fulfilling their political preferences. Populists usually come from the elite establishment they claim to oppose. And they usually end up in jail. Or worse.

Of course it works initially. It has always worked. Democracy is fragile and it changes constantly. That's dangerous if you want power.

You think it was Johnson or Corbyn. Brexit or stalemate. Educated or uneducated. Ignoramus or anti-Semite. Because we were told that over and over. It was hammered through the media for years.

And we are still being played like an old piano.

[silver fox]

It was Boris or Corbyn.
Brexit or stalemate.
Educated or uneducated.
Ignoramus or anti-Semite.

Possibly Johnson or Corbyn, but it wasn't that simple, Corbyn to a degree was riding a wave of left wing populism, while Johnson made "Get Brexit done" his mantra, sadly the Brexit promises are a long way from being fulfilled which was always going to be the case.

Not sure where your educated or uneducated come into the equation, unless of course you feel Brexit appealed to the uneducated,

Grant you the ignoramus, but in spite of the lurid propaganda, don't feel for one moment that Corbyn was/is anti-semitic.

However we have what we have and somehow we have to live with it.

[Desert Region]

COP26: Archbishop of Canterbury apologises for 'Nazi' climate comments
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59117537

Justin Welby apologises for likening climate threat to Nazis
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...hreat-to-nazis


...even the Archbishop of Canterbury is partial to a bit of reductio ad Hitlerum.


It's always Hitler and virtually never Stalin or Mao. Well, except for when the Labour left talk about Starmer:

Labour conference: Exclusion of delegates ‘like Stalin’, says John McDonnell
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1927239.html

[Polly Trott]

Following a backlash, Justin Wellby has contritely apologized for comparing the world's reticence to confront climate change - and its potentially genocidal impact - with a previous generation's reticence to confront Nazi Germany.

Eating his words, the archbishop stated that "It's never right to make comparisons with the atrocities brought by the Nazis". Now that is an obviously silly statement. It's silly empirically - obviously there are occurrences whose practical and ethical dimensions can be illuminated by comparisons to Nazi Germany. And it is silly theoretically: the vast majority of of us, who didn't experience these atrocities first hand, can only make sense of what happened by relating it, however indirectly, to things that we are more familiar with. Comparison does not imply equivalence, and, like it or not, it is fundamental to making sense of anything.

I must say, the last days of Rome look positively glorious compared with the bellenditude that today envelopes us. According to legend, the Romans partied hard and engaged in all manner of sensual pleasure rather than confront the catastrophe of Visigoths breaking through the city's gates. Sadly we have no such luck. Rather than partying, we are mentally displacing the impending catastrophe by maximizing our misery over **** that doesn't matter. If Nero fiddled whilst Rome burned, we today are frowning and screenshotting whilst the world burns.

Reuben Bard-Rosenberg 1.11.21

[Toodles McGinty]

COP26: Archbishop of Canterbury apologises for 'Nazi' climate comments
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59117537

Justin Welby apologises for likening climate threat to Nazis
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...hreat-to-nazis


...even the Archbishop of Canterbury is partial to a bit of reductio ad Hitlerum.


It's always Hitler and virtually never Stalin or Mao. Well, except for when the Labour left talk about Starmer:

Labour conference: Exclusion of delegates ‘like Stalin’, says John McDonnell
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1927239.html

Not sure that the Nazis nor Stalin are apt when it comes to those who ignore climate change. If so, it pretty much applies to most people in the developed world, rather than just politicians.

I think the phrase 'sleepwalking into climate change' is more fitting. There's no denying that unless we do something soon, millions will die. If it isn't too late anyway. It probably is. But we aren't turning a blind eye to people deliberately killing folk. I don't even think the 'evil' fossil fuel industry is planning genocide. I don't think they are fussed about what happens tomorrow for profits today. There may be some sort of Nuremberg reckoning eventually.

As for Labour, I'd liken them more to the Kilkenny Cats, fighting until there's nothing left (or right):

Till, excepting their nails
And the tips of their tails,
Instead of two cats, there weren’t any.

[Desert Region]

Not sure that the Nazis nor Stalin are apt when it comes to those who ignore climate change. If so, it pretty much applies to most people in the developed world, rather than just politicians.

I think the phrase 'sleepwalking into climate change' is more fitting. There's no denying that unless we do something soon, millions will die. If it isn't too late anyway. It probably is. But we aren't turning a blind eye to people deliberately killing folk. I don't even think the 'evil' fossil fuel industry is planning genocide. I don't think they are fussed about what happens tomorrow for profits today. There may be some sort of Nuremberg reckoning eventually.

As for Labour, I'd liken them more to the Kilkenny Cats, fighting until there's nothing left (or right):

Till, excepting their nails
And the tips of their tails,
Instead of two cats, there weren’t any.

'Liverpool Labour' takes some beating when it comes to vitriol. I think they still hate Johnson and his fellow Tory 'Nazis' and 'scum' more than 'treasonous' 'dictator' 'Keir Stalin' but it can seem a close-run affair.

But when it comes to a history of vicious infighting it's difficult for Labour to match the destructive decades of a Conservative Party at war with itself over the issue of Europe. There was an article last year in The Telegraph titled: Europe brought down six Tory PMs. Can Boris avoid being the seventh?

With a thumping majority he probably feels safe for now, but moods can shift rapidly, and those recent comments from the chair of the OBR re forecasts on the long-run impact of Brexit on GDP will inevitably be repeatedly referenced.