Gaza, Hamas etc

[Alikado]

Quote Alikado
"On that basis Hamas have done no wrong invading Israel to occupy land to create a land for the Palestinians."

You deny torture rape dismemberment murder of children women and men
and kidnapping to "no wrong in invading Israel".
Hamas and other Palestinians did not get as far as occupying Israel on October 7th Israe is making sure they do not try again.

As I said I was commenting on Toodles post not the rights and wrongs.

[Hamble]

As I said I was commenting on Toodles post not the rights and wrongs.

Which part of Toodles post?

[said]

Quote
"....
A top Hamas official has stated that it is not their responsibility to protect civilians.[59] Human Rights Watch called Hamas to protect civilians under their control and not use them as "human shields."[14]

Human rights organizations demanded the release of hostages held by Hamas and cautioned that using them to shield military assets is prohibited under international law.[60][61]"
..........................During a UN Security Council meeting on the Middle East held on 24 October 2023, UK Minister of State for Security, Tom Tugendhat, asserted, "We know that Hamas are using innocent Palestinian civilians as human shields; they have embedded themselves in civilian communities." Germany's Foreign Minister, Annalena Baerbock, said: "We must not be fooled by Hamas' playbook," and emphasizing "their use of women and children in Gaza as human shields, and their hiding of weapons under supermarkets, apartment blocks, and even hospitals." Philippe Kridelka, Jean Asselborn, and Sergiy Kyslytsya, representing Belgium, Luxembourg, and Ukraine, respectively, also expressed condemnation for Hamas's use of civilians as human shields.[79]

On 13 November 2023, 27 European Union nations jointly condemned Hamas for the use of hospitals and civilians as human shields.[80][81]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of...gs%20to%20flee.

The UK has become a multinational nation. In actuality, the UK is no different from any other multinational nation in that it is home to individuals of all nationalities who prioritize their own needs over those of others. There is even a term for it: multiple mono-culturalism. Although every immigrant who has lived in the UK asserts that they view the country as "home," their loyalty is with their native nation. Since identification is more powerful than ideologies, they have little interest in British ideology.

Should the UK become involved in another war it will be to protect it's identity - most of those who have come to the UK will up and leave and return to the safety of their own 'home'. Why should they risk their lives to fight for any country which is after all not their concern.

The UK is no longer run by the British. Almost every nation has a finger in the British pie, whether they live in the UK or abroad. Not because of an allegiance to the British people, but because they are using the UK to take what they can out of it. It is a plastic world, emotion and reality hamper the desire for greed among the leaders while the electorate are seeking to retain their identity.

There would be no wars, no conflict if it were not for greed or for the need of people to retain their own respect. Wars are created by various leaders wanting a larger slice of cake. If not the leaders, then it is those who have been marginalised by politics - wars are not to resolve any silly arguments or a threat to their country, that is a lie.

Israel/Hamas what is the conflict for and why? It is not because there are more people of one religion living among others with another religion. War has no religion so religion cannot be used as an excuse or cause. It is not racist for it is Semitic upon Semitic - it is because some people are under threat of losing what they have or want and are unwilling to compromise.

Russia/Ukraine is slightly different in that it is other countries want that which the Ukraine has and which is that which Russia controls. It is not questioned that the Ukraine is a created country occupying a part of each of Romania, Poland, Belarus, Hungary, Moldova and Russia and did not exist before August 1991. But there are a large number of Russians who live within the Ukraine and a large number of Ukrainians living in Russia. The conflict is between the same nation.

Wars are fought for the need of identity - those of certain nations want equal to those people of other nations. Those responsible for promoting ideology are wrong to do so, identity trumps ideology. It would be wise to engage into peace talks, bearing this in mind.

[Alikado]

Which part of Toodles post?

The post.

[Hamble]

The post.

That is why I have asked you to copy paste which specific bit as I am unable to identity the actual reason you tried to frame Toodles with your
insinuation.

Bearing in mind you have form on tolerance of anti Israel posts
and often make unfounded accusations around conspiracy theories.

[Alikado]

That is why I have asked you to copy paste which specific bit as I am unable to identity the actual reason you tried to frame Toodles with your
insinuation.

Bearing in mind you have form on tolerance of anti Israel posts
and often make unfounded accusations around conspiracy theories.

The whole post Toodles says wars and seizing territory is ok, it's happened so it's ok.

[Hamble]

The whole post Toodles says wars and seizing territory is ok, it's happened so it's ok.

I have read Toodles post a few times there is no truth in your accusation.
Actually her argument is borders change over history by agreement not invasion rape murder torture and kidnapping let alone what Radical Islamic Jihad inflicts in Palestine or the UK.

[Toodles McGinty]

The whole post Toodles says wars and seizing territory is ok, it's happened so it's ok.

That wasn't quite the point.

What I'm saying is people keep bringing up historical actions, saying such things as 'well the Zionists in the 19th century' or 'the British did this and that'.

What I'm saying is that is irrelevant. We can't turn the clock back to when the area called Palestine was ruled by Egyptians or Turks. That Israel, through outside influences or war etc, exists. It can't not exist, and entitled to defend itself. Until such a time other outside influences take the country, which is highly unlikely given current politics.

I also believe that Palestine, as a country, has the right to exist. And it's high time the international community recognised that and agreed on official borders. As they have done over millennia, one way or another. That Israel's land grabs should not be tolerated. And Palestine, as a sovereign state / country would also have the right to defend itself.

But the actions of Hamas have not been to claim territory. They terrorised the innocent people of Israel. They used rape as a weapon. They slaughtered children for no reason other than they could. No territory was gained. No tactical position was achieved. Hamas isn't Palestine, they are as destructive to their own people as they are to Israelis. They murder Palestinians, use them as shields. They exist for power and monetary gain, not as 'freedom fighters'.

The international community recognising borders, or even two countries fighting a war, is not the same as sending in psychopaths to cut babies out of pregnant women.

[sandGroundZero]

… Go back millennia, go back 70 years. All formed from war, conflict, political unrest, interference from outside forces. … … underline added — i.e. in the broad sweep of history, MIGHT MAKES RIGHT! … What I'm saying is people keep bringing up historical actions, saying such things as 'well the Zionists in the 19th century' or 'the British did this and that'. What I'm saying is that is irrelevant. We can't turn the clock back to when the area called Palestine was ruled by Egyptians or Turks. That Israel, through outside influences or war etc, exists. It can't not exist, and entitled to defend itself. Until such a time other outside influences take the country, which is highly unlikely given current politics. … Political Zionism was formalized in the late 19th century by Theodore Herzl. It did not end there. The ideology continues to be propagated in the world. Israel was founded with the backing of the U.S. Truman administration and supported by the UK's (1945-51) government — "outside forces — out of expediency as much as principle. These outside forces have shielded Israel diplomatically continue to provision it (with notably, war-making matériel). It should be remembered, however, that there are other outside forces at work in the world and that the balance is not fixed.

[Desert Region]

That is why I have asked you to copy paste which specific bit as I am unable to identity the actual reason you tried to frame Toodles with your
insinuation.

Bearing in mind you have form on tolerance of anti Israel posts
and often make unfounded accusations around conspiracy theories.

Yes, Alikado certainly does have form and certainly has made unfounded accusations around conspiracy theories.

It's also continues to be noticeable how the coward that is sGZ repeatedly, falsely accuses of anti-Semitism (and then habitually runs away when challenged over their false accusations), but when it comes to an actual anti-Semite, such as Alikado, sGZ studiously maintains a complicit, continuous silence.

sGZ, the hit-and-run false-accuser, complicitly silent comrade and all-round coward.

[Hamble]

— i.e. in the broad sweep of history, MIGHT MAKES RIGHT! Political Zionism was formalized in the late 19th century by Theodore Herzl. It did not end there. The ideology continues to be propagated in the world. Israel was founded with the backing of the U.S. Truman administration and supported by the UK's (1945-51) government — "outside forces — out of expediency as much as principle. These outside forces have shielded Israel diplomatically continue to provision it (with notably, war-making matériel). It should be remembered, however, that there are other outside forces at work in the world and that the balance is not fixed.

Islamism (political Islam) has existed in the United Kingdom since the 1970s, and has become widely visible and a topic of political discourse since the beginning of the 21st century. Islam in the United Kingdom has grown rapidly due to immigration since the 1980s.



Quote
"After a half century, Islamism has become the single most disruptive force—both politically and militarily—in the Middle East. It evolved from cells of political activists in the 1970s into mass movements and, for the first time, as a governing force in the late 20th century. Both Sunni and Shiites turned to their faith amid the failure of monarchies and autocracies to deliver political freedoms, economic benefits, stability, or security since the wave of independence from colonial powers began in the mid-20th century. “Islam is the solution” became a common refrain echoed by multiple movements. Islamist political parties competed in democratic elections in North Africa, the Levant, and the Gulf. Meanwhile, diverse militant movements—from Morocco to Egypt, from Lebanon across to the Gulf—turned to hostage-taking and suicide bombs against diplomatic, military and civilian targets to enhance their impact.

Islamism expanded in the 21st century—in vastly different ways. Parties willing to run won democratic elections in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq, Turkey, and the Palestinian Authority. Some were short-lived in power. Militants simultaneously became more brazen, whatever the large loss of life among their constituents or the vast destruction. The map of the Middle East changed after huge chunks of territory were seized from Iraq and Syria to create the first modern caliphate. Militias also triggered two devastating wars with Israel in 2006 and 2023."

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/islamism-50

[Hamble]

Yes, Alikado certainly does have form and certainly has made unfounded accusations around conspiracy theories.

It's also continues to be noticeable how the coward that is sGZ repeatedly, falsely accuses of anti-Semitism (and then habitually runs away when challenged over their false accusations), but when it comes to an actual anti-Semite, such as Alikado, sGZ studiously maintains a complicit, continuous silence.

sGZ, the hit-and-run false-accuser, complicitly silent comrade and all-round coward.

Total hypocrisy in ignoring the fact they object to immigration and asylum seekers to Israel that would be racist to object to in the UK.

[Toodles McGinty]

— i.e. in the broad sweep of history, MIGHT MAKES RIGHT! Political Zionism was formalized in the late 19th century by Theodore Herzl. It did not end there. The ideology continues to be propagated in the world. Israel was founded with the backing of the U.S. Truman administration and supported by the UK's (1945-51) government — "outside forces — out of expediency as much as principle. These outside forces have shielded Israel diplomatically continue to provision it (with notably, war-making matériel). It should be remembered, however, that there are other outside forces at work in the world and that the balance is not fixed.

Might doesn't mean right. It just means setting borders as it always has done.

There are many ideologies in the world. Doesn't mean they are right or wrong, it simply depends on your point of view. That Jewish people, particularly after the horrors of WW2, should have a homeland in the birthplace of their religion isn't really surprising.

Nor is it surprising that the west wanted a democracy in the Middle East. Now the only democracy in the Middle East.

The 'balance' has never been fixed. No empires last the distance.

Still doesn't change the fact that Israel is a country, will remain a country for the foreseeable, and has a right to defend herself when surrounded by Islamist terrorists and hostile countries.

[sandGroundZero]

Yes, Alikado certainly does have form and certainly has made unfounded accusations around conspiracy theories.

sGZ, the hit-and-run false-accuser, complicitly silent comrade and all-round coward.

.

[sandGroundZero]

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