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Originally Posted by sandGroundZero
Pleased to read your post, Toodles McGinty. I've missed your contributions.
Originally Posted by silver fox
Welcpme back Toodles, of course all these Brexiteers knew of the pandemic when they voted and decided we would fare better on our own
Thanks chaps
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…truth, or dare?
…If I could …force politicians to actually tell the truth. Make it a crime to mislead the public in Parliament, or in elections. It'll never happen, but I think democracy could do with a good dose of honesty all round. — post #340
There are of course sanctions against "misleading parliament" i.e. pork pies in the Commons chamber. We know how well that works.
Much more thoroughgoing reform is essential (as I've posted in the past ).
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Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty
I don't think it ever was. But we did hold a privileged position within it. No Euro (though the pound is pretty weak), no Schengen.
I don't think anyone has ever claimed it is any kind of Utopia, even the most rabid EU advocate can see that 28, now 27 countries couldn't work seamlessly all the time. Even the few NAFTA countries had problems.
But it is advantageous to business. Both SMEs and large companies. I've lost count of the amount of companies tweeting apologies for no longer dealing with us. Plus we're having to dish out millions to keep the likes of Nissan to stay here. Even that isn't enough for companies such as Coca Cola and Berkeley.
Then when the Dept of Trade advises businesses to move to Europe, and the NI Sec. tells the world that Northern Ireland is perfectly placed because it's in the single market, there must be pause for thought.
Not that it holds any relevance now, but the whole problem with the referendum was that very few people actually voted for what we have now. There were so many variations in what Brexit meant to individuals, it should never have come down to 'in or out'. As mentioned, the fishermen are up in arms, the farmers are up in arms. So many people who voted 'out' are now saying 'Yes, but not like this'.
If I could personally pass legislation, apart from abolishing the FPTP system, would be to force politicians to actually tell the truth. Make it a crime to mislead the public in Parliament, or in elections. It'll never happen, but I think democracy could do with a good dose of honesty all round.
Even if politicians had to tell the truth on facts their opinion would still sway the public.
Remain had an advantage in that The vote was given under a Tory Government by a Tory Remainer and despite the hatefest from the left still voted Brexit.
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We do know. You can lie through your teeth on any subject in the Commons, but you can't say 'you're a liar'.
It might be the 'Mother of Parliaments', but she has spawned much smarter offspring.
We need a written constitution, updated as necessary.
And as you say, SGZ, root and branch reform.
Last edited by Toodles McGinty; 24/01/2021 at 08:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hamble
Even if politicians had to tell the truth on facts their opinion would still sway the public.
Remain had an advantage in that The vote was given under a Tory Government by a Tory Remainer and despite the hatefest from the left still voted Brexit.
'Hatefest'?
Care to elaborate?
I remember lie after lie after lie from the Leave campaign. Hence the outcry from certain sectors now of 'I wouldn't have voted leave if I'd have known'. I could list the lies if you don't mind scrolling for an hour.
I remember a left wing politician being murdered. I think Jo Cox would still be alive if the Tufton Street mob, their backers and their puppets weren't so desperate to turn Britain (eventually England) into a deregulated tax haven.
But you'll have to remind me of this 'hatefest' from the left.
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Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty
'Hatefest'?
Care to elaborate?
I remember lie after lie after lie from the Leave campaign. Hence the outcry from certain sectors now of 'I wouldn't have voted leave if I'd have known'. I could list the lies if you don't mind scrolling for an hour.
I remember a left wing politician being murdered. I think Jo Cox would still be alive if the Tufton Street mob, their backers and their puppets weren't so desperate to turn Britain (eventually England) into a deregulated tax haven.
But you'll have to remind me of this 'hatefest' from the left.
Branding Brexit voters 'racist' was hateful.
So was the behaviour of the leader of the opposition.
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It is important to keep running down the country if you haven't got your way it seems.
Our extraordinary success in vaccinating our population because we didn't tie ourselves to the EU is of course something to ***** about now.
The scientists view that sharing out what vaccines we have to give some protection to more people is something else to complain about.
Around half a million have had both doses already.
Putting yourself in perpetual whining mode must be very wearing mentally and a drain on your friend's relatives and colleagues.
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Originally Posted by Hamble
Branding Brexit voters 'racist' was hateful.
So was the behaviour of the leader of the opposition.
More 'hateful' than murder? More hateful than the massive rise in racist crimes since the whole question of Brexit arose?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't think all Brexit voters are racist. But I do think all racists are Brexit voters.
I think simple xenophobia was behind the majority of the votes. I think people were misled and lied to by the 'Leave' campaign. Backed by the likes of the Elliots, Bannon, the same people behind the social media influencers who founded Cambridge Analytica, Banks, Tice, various ex-Ukippers and ultimately Russia.
I know racists who voted Leave. There are Leave voters on here who are very obviously racist. Or xenophobic at the least.
Let's be honest, it wasn't an economic decision. The total ignorance of the economics of Brexit was apparent. As I recall the entire concept of 'tariffs' had to be explained about 20 times by Seivad long before the actual vote. As I said, when the NI Secretary says NI is better off because it's in the single market, let's not pretend it was a financial gain.
So what was it? Brexiters shift the argument. When you point out the economic cost they say "sovereignty", when you point out that we always had control over the laws that really matter, they say "immigration", when you point out that we always had plenty of ways of controlling immigration that we never used and that immigration was positive for the economy, they would say "global Britain", when you point out that other EU countries do absolutely fine exporting to the rest of the world ...on and on.
I don't think you are racist, H. So you tell us what your reasons were?
And what 'behaviour' of the LOTO offended you? Considering he was on the fence throughout the whole thing, what did he do?
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Originally Posted by local
It is important to keep running down the country if you haven't got your way it seems.
I don't think anyone is running down the country. People are questioning our government and the decisions they make, as is their right as enfranchised citizens. Not everyone is stupidly, blindly loyal to a political party, regardless of their actions.
People are discussing the repercussions of leaving the EU. Which is something that involves us all, and hardly a surprise given the title of the thread.
I suppose drooling blind loyalty has some merits. I can't think of any, beyond being handy if Johnson or Trump run out of loo roll.
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Originally Posted by local
It is important to keep running down the country if you haven't got your way it seems.
.
Is this your last resort when you have no answer to the comments made, take your blinkers off, very few if any want the country to fail, just because we dare to question what government does, doesn’t mean we are running the country down.
Remember Brexit affects all of us, it is not in anyone’s interest to see failure, but that doesn’t mean that we unquestionably sing the praises of the colossal ideological exercise, which for me has never been more than some jingoistic, nationalistic, programme, with little basis on the reality of Brexit.
When we see what Remainers forecast being proved correct within days, gives no satisfaction whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty
More 'hateful' than murder? More hateful than the massive rise in racist crimes since the whole question of Brexit arose?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't think all Brexit voters are racist. But I do think all racists are Brexit voters.
I think simple xenophobia was behind the majority of the votes. I think people were misled and lied to by the 'Leave' campaign. Backed by the likes of the Elliots, Bannon, the same people behind the social media influencers who founded Cambridge Analytica, Banks, Tice, various ex-Ukippers and ultimately Russia.
I know racists who voted Leave. There are Leave voters on here who are very obviously racist. Or xenophobic at the least.
Let's be honest, it wasn't an economic decision. The total ignorance of the economics of Brexit was apparent. As I recall the entire concept of 'tariffs' had to be explained about 20 times by Seivad long before the actual vote. As I said, when the NI Secretary says NI is better off because it's in the single market, let's not pretend it was a financial gain.
So what was it? Brexiters shift the argument. When you point out the economic cost they say "sovereignty", when you point out that we always had control over the laws that really matter, they say "immigration", when you point out that we always had plenty of ways of controlling immigration that we never used and that immigration was positive for the economy, they would say "global Britain", when you point out that other EU countries do absolutely fine exporting to the rest of the world ...on and on.
I don't think you are racist, H. So you tell us what your reasons were?
And what 'behaviour' of the LOTO offended you? Considering he was on the fence throughout the whole thing, what did he do?
The EU of today is not in the spirit of what the UK signed up to on joining in 1973.
It offends me that Labour and other Socialist Government elected Countries support a Capitalist endeavour by proxy Left wing at home.
It offends me the EU is not a 'Level playing field' in many areas.
It is wrong that member countries assist out of EU migration of peoples
they treat less than their own Nationals.
I abhor the rise of human trafficking aided by the Schengen system countries.
I abhor slave labour and religious discrimination within the EU system.
Corbyn stoked racist conspiracy theory.
On the one hand linking Jews with a World conspiracy yet knowing without the model EU and Capitalism his theory of survivability as a politician would not survive.
Had Corbyn got in power and with the rise of antisemitism in Europe from the far right voting for Brexit was a personal option I would take
again.
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Originally Posted by Hamble
The EU of today is not in the spirit of what the UK signed up to on joining in 1973.
It offends me that Labour and other Socialist Government elected Countries support a Capitalist endeavour by proxy Left wing at home.
It offends me the EU is not a 'Level playing field' in many areas.
It is wrong that member countries assist out of EU migration of peoples
they treat less than their own Nationals.
I abhor the rise of human trafficking aided by the Schengen system countries.
I abhor slave labour and religious discrimination within the EU system.
Corbyn stoked racist conspiracy theory.
On the one hand linking Jews with a World conspiracy yet knowing without the model EU and Capitalism his theory of survivability as a politician would not survive.
Had Corbyn got in power and with the rise of antisemitism in Europe from the far right voting for Brexit was a personal option I would take
again.
How do you imagine that countries run without both socialist and capitalist endeavours? Neither system running exclusively is conducive to the good of a country. We support a socialist endeavour if we see our GP or pay Council Tax, we support a capitalist endeavour when we buy our shopping. Should we only trade with governments whose politics we approve of? If so, I'm not sure we can even trade within the UK.
The EU is more of a level playing field than virtually any other political venture. Worker's rights, Human rights, freedom of movement, freedom to live, learn, work in 27 other countries without limits or red tape is invaluable. Freedom to trade in a single market, in a customs union is priceless. Well, not quite, companies here and within the EU are paying a hefty price to trade with each other now.
We weren't in the Schengen zone. Human traffickers don't give a monkey's about easy border crossing. They'll find a way. I sincerely doubt we'll have less trafficking to the country this year than last year. They won't just say 'call it off lads, Britain isn't in the EU any more'. But what we won't have is the cooperation with EU countries with regard to crime and criminal intelligence. Apparently our police accessed the EU's criminal database literally millions of times a day. It's gone. Which makes, to my mind, the UK a safer place for traffickers.
Corbyn stoked nothing. I've criticised him for many things, and I don't think he did enough to stamp out antisemitism, but I don't think he stoked it either. The far right is here. In the halls of Westminster. A populist government elected on a single issue which was stoked by racism.
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Originally Posted by The PNP
A) The EU has progressed since '73. A common currency and free movement being logical steps forward, and are two of the major achievements. It was and is still is a 'work in progress'.
B) 'Sending back' failed asylum seekers and illegal economic migrants, is fine by me. People should stay at home and make a success of their own country, rather than piling into the EU or UK imo.
C) While border posts have been dismantled within Schengen area, there are ways to intercept trafficking. E.g. a State may set up 'flying' roadblocks on approaches to their border, to check paperwork and search for people/drugs, etc. I encountered one such check some years ago, driving North out of Spain.
D) Slave labour will exist, whether or not a country is in the EU. It's up to Border Agencies to clamp down on rogue employers....Can't say I've noticed any religious discrimination from the authorities here, or in mainland Europe.
A) You think the UK would have abandoned the £?
B) 'Free movement' means exactly that.
C) Schengen helps not hinders human trafficking.
D)You missed corbyngate?
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