Middle east crisis.

[sandGroundZero]

Pomerantz' formula is an encapsulation of the Oslo Accords of 1993 with the October 7 2023 Hamas attack as background. It characteristically patronizes the Palestinian people, themselves, — they are not asked for a view. It expects the international community to accept Israel's "facts on the ground". And it makes the international community responsible for imposing a government on the Palestinians! FFS, would anything other than the eradication of Israel make you happy? That is a perfectly reasonable plan that eventually leads to a Palestinian state and self-rule after decades of chaos under the rule of murderers and terrorists. There is no solution that doesn't initially involve the international community. It isn't going to happen. There is no Palestinian version of Sinn Fein that can step up politically and legitimise Hamas, they are self serving terrorists with no interest in peace, no interest in anything other than wiping out Israelis of all origin, no interest in anything other than ruling Palestine through fear and violence. Palestine has to be given a chance to live in peace. To rebuild. Why don't people like you want that? FFS You're posting about a 'solution' that has been recycled at intervals for 30 years and changed only little since 1978 when in his deal with Anwar Sadat, Israel's PM Menachem Begin refused to acknowledge Palestinians as a political entity with a claim to justice in their homeland. [Sadat was subsequently assassinated for his machinations! Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated for presuming to offer something remotely like a Palestinian state.] Successive Israeli governments baulked, when it came to delivering a Palestinian state. A number of posters in this thread do not wish to recognize that the Jewish voters in Israel are becoming more hawkish, not less! Lastly, your "eradication of Israel" taunt is way off the mark.

[Toodles McGinty]

FFS You're posting about a 'solution' that has been recycled at intervals for 30 years and changed only little since 1978 when in his deal with Anwar Sadat, Israel's PM Menachem Begin refused to acknowledge Palestinians as a political entity with a claim to justice in their homeland. [Sadat was subsequently assassinated for his machinations! Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated for presuming to offer something remotely like a Palestinian state.] Successive Israeli governments baulked, when it came to delivering a Palestinian state. A number of posters in this thread do not wish to recognize that the Jewish voters in Israel are becoming more hawkish, not less! Lastly, your "eradication of Israel" taunt is way off the mark.

So your criticism of this perfectly reasonable plan is that it's been suggested before and Israel didn't like it, not that "It characteristically patronizes the Palestinian people, themselves, — they are not asked for a view. It expects the international community to accept Israel's "facts on the ground". And it makes the international community responsible for imposing a government on the Palestinians!"

The international community can observe the events in the ME and make their own minds up.

So right now there's hardly likely to be a referendum of Palestinians to see if they like the plan. And it hinges on whether or not Israel wants it. Realistically peace depends on Hamas being taken out, not whether or not they 'agree'. And yes, a government initially would have to be imposed on Palestine. Just as a government had to be imposed on Germany after the Nazis were defeated.

Or should they wait until there isn't a Palestinian left? Israel has superior firepower. Palestine is run wholly by terrorists. Maybe the 'international community' should just leave them to it?

There has to be intervention. There has to be a ceasefire agreed by both sides to not only give Palestinians a chance to rebuild their lives, but to give Israel a chance to sort their own politics out.

I guess I'd be more 'hawkish' if terrorists had a charter to say they exist to wipe out me and mine, and then they act upon it. And declare they'll act upon it again and again.

[Styx]

So your criticism of this perfectly reasonable plan is that it's been suggested before and Israel didn't like it, not that "It characteristically patronizes the Palestinian people, themselves, — they are not asked for a view. It expects the international community to accept Israel's "facts on the ground". And it makes the international community responsible for imposing a government on the Palestinians!"

The international community can observe the events in the ME and make their own minds up.

So right now there's hardly likely to be a referendum of Palestinians to see if they like the plan. And it hinges on whether or not Israel wants it. Realistically peace depends on Hamas being taken out, not whether or not they 'agree'. And yes, a government initially would have to be imposed on Palestine. Just as a government had to be imposed on Germany after the Nazis were defeated.

Or should they wait until there isn't a Palestinian left? Israel has superior firepower. Palestine is run wholly by terrorists. Maybe the 'international community' should just leave them to it?

There has to be intervention. There has to be a ceasefire agreed by both sides to not only give Palestinians a chance to rebuild their lives, but to give Israel a chance to sort their own politics out.

I guess I'd be more 'hawkish' if terrorists had a charter to say they exist to wipe out me and mine, and then they act upon it. And declare they'll act upon it again and again.

If I could like this post more than once, I would.

[sandGroundZero]

Israel's disdainful attitude to international law is evident in its 75 years of incremental steps towards sovereignty of all of the land 'from the River to the Sea'. The United States, leading Britain and Europe (on and off), has allowed Israel to get away with murder — not altogether metaphorically speaking — as it finagles its way to achieving its goal. Palestinians' treacherous friends, Israel's Arab neighbouring states, have blundered callously, then left them in the lurch time and again to struggle alone for a just settlement. Israel aims to bypass the Palestinians. Its prime strategy has been a diplomatic version of bait and switch whereby it strings the international community along decade after decade with a promise of the so-called two state solution which it has no intention of delivering — certainly NOT in terms most people, or UN resolutions envisage a Palestinian state! There would never have been Hamas, if Israel had dealt in good faith from the outset.

[Toodles McGinty]

Israel's disdainful attitude to international law is evident in its 75 years of incremental steps towards sovereignty of all of the land 'from the River to the Sea'. The United States, leading Britain and Europe (on and off), has allowed Israel to get away with murder — not altogether metaphorically speaking — as it finagles its way to achieving its goal. Palestinians' treacherous friends, Israel's Arab neighbouring states, have blundered callously, then left them in the lurch time and again to struggle alone for a just settlement. Israel aims to bypass the Palestinians. Its prime strategy has been a diplomatic version of bait and switch whereby it strings the international community along decade after decade with a promise of the so-called two state solution which it has no intention of delivering — certainly NOT in terms most people, or UN resolutions envisage a Palestinian state! There would never have been Hamas, if Israel had dealt in good faith from the outset.

Ah, so all those raped, tortured, slaughtered on 7 /10 was Israel's fault.

Not the thugs and terrorists that took Gaza by force, the murderers of their own Palestinian people. Not the pieces of sub-human detritus that hide behind and kill innocent Palestinians. That exist to empower and enrich themselves, rather than govern: Hamas.

Not Hamas, fully able to control their actions.

Just Israel's fault.

Not even the thinly veiled 'Zionists' fault now. Straight up 'Israel'.

Amazed you haven't just narrowed it down to 'Jew's fault'. But give it time.

Glad you cleared that up.

[sandGroundZero]

Ah, so all those raped, tortured, slaughtered on 7 /10 was Israel's fault.
Not the thugs and terrorists that took Gaza by force, the murderers of their own Palestinian people. Not the pieces of sub-human detritus that hide behind and kill innocent Palestinians. That exist to empower and enrich themselves, rather than govern: Hamas.
Not Hamas, fully able to control their actions.
Just Israel's fault.
Not even the thinly veiled 'Zionists' fault now. Straight up 'Israel'.
Amazed you haven't just narrowed it down to 'Jew's fault'. But give it time.
Glad you cleared that up.

McGinty, your interpretation of my post is a travesty — "if Israel had dealt in good faith from the outset" is a hypothetical. If Hitler had been a humanist not an ethno-nationalist, then there would have been no Shoah; if there had been no Shoah, there would be no Israel. That said, if Hitler had been a humanist, then he might have perished at the hands of some (hypothetical) other ethno-nationalist! Of course Hamas' actions on October 7, before and since, are criminal and the perpetrators of crimes bear responsibility for their actions. My position indicated many times, is that Zionism is a nationalist ideology. Like other nationalist ideologies, it is prone to extremism. Uncompromising Zionists have from the beginning coveted the land "from the River to the sea"; [and beyond — Eretz Yisrael]. As happened, the extremists have been sufficiently influential throughout modern Israel's history to block progress towards a just settlement with the Palestinians they dislocated. Finally, Zionist is not veiled epithet. [Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. Undoubtedly, Israel's leading politicians are Zionists.] Imputing anti-Semitism is a gross affront. You and other posters in this thread would do well to review the IHRA definition, substituting Islam for Judaism. You might want to revise some of your posts; else be labelled anti-Islam.

[Toodles McGinty]

McGinty, your interpretation of my post is a travesty — "if Israel had dealt in good faith from the outset" is a hypothetical. If Hitler had been a humanist not an ethno-nationalist, then there would have been no Shoah; if there had been no Shoah, there would be no Israel. That said, if Hitler had been a humanist, then he might have perished at the hands of some (hypothetical) other ethno-nationalist! Of course Hamas' actions on October 7, before and since, are criminal and the perpetrators of crimes bear responsibility for their actions. My position indicated many times, is that Zionism is a nationalist ideology. Like other nationalist ideologies, it is prone to extremism. Uncompromising Zionists have from the beginning coveted the land "from the River to the sea"; [and beyond — Eretz Yisrael]. As happened, the extremists have been sufficiently influential throughout modern Israel's history to block progress towards a just settlement with the Palestinians they dislocated. Finally, Zionist is not veiled epithet. [Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. Undoubtedly, Israel's leading politicians are Zionists.] Imputing anti-Semitism is a gross affront. You and other posters in this thread would do well to review the IHRA definition, substituting Islam for Judaism. You might want to revise some of your posts; else be labelled anti-Islam.

I am anti-Islam. I'm anti all organised religion, but especially Islam.

I'm anti- gay people being murdered for being LGBT.

I'm anti-women being whipped because a man raped her.

I'm anti-little girls being sold into marriage to 50 year old men.

I'm anti-Muslim grooming gangs.

I'm anti-being blown up at a pop concert.

I'm anti-calls for Sharia law in this country.

I'm anti- all of the above being imported into this country.

I'm anti- Jewish people being terrified in their own country.

I'm not anti-any Muslim individuals, but yes, I'm anti-Islam. Anti-Islamist. Not Islamophobic, because phobia indicates an irrational fear. And anti-any other religion that is still practised with archaic and damaging ideals. Were Christianity still practised by Old Testament standards, I'd be equally against that. Because that would be equally barbaric.

Label me anti-Islam all you like. I'll just point you to the above list and say 'yes'.

[sandGroundZero]

T McGinty

I am anti-Islam. … — Glad you cleared that up.

[Toodles McGinty]

T McGinty

I am anti-Islam. … — Glad you cleared that up.

Yes.

See above.

[sandGroundZero]

• I am anti-Islam. I'm anti all organised religion, but especially Islam.
• I'm anti- gay people being murdered for being LGBT.
• I'm anti-women being whipped because a man raped her.
• I'm anti-little girls being sold into marriage to 50 year old men.
• I'm anti-Muslim grooming gangs.
• I'm anti-being blown up at a pop concert.
• I'm anti-calls for Sharia law in this country.
• I'm anti- all of the above being imported into this country.
• I'm anti- Jewish people being terrified in their own country.
• I'm not anti-any Muslim individuals, but yes, I'm anti-Islam.
  Anti-Islamist. Not Islamophobic, because phobia indicates an irrational fear.
• And anti-any other religion that is still practised with archaic and damaging ideals. Were Christianity still practised by Old Testament standards, I'd be equally against that. Because that would be equally barbaric.

Label me anti-Islam all you like. I'll just point you to the above list and say 'yes'.

I reject the notion that European Jews had a unique and exclusive claim to Palestine (a.k.a biblical Judea & Israel) which justifies them displacing the preexistent Arab population therefrom. I deplore successive Israeli governments' encouragement of Jewish settlements in the West Bank obstructing (i.e. their 'facts on the ground') the possibility of a viable, independent Palestinian state. I reject a view sometimes expressed in this thread that having evacuated Jewish settlers from Gaza, the remaining residents are somehow freed from Israeli control. I regret Starmer and Labour politicians' not supporting a ceasefire resolution in Israel's plausibly genocidal war on Gaza. I object to the fact that the UK [as a UN Security Council permanent member] has repeatedly declined to demand that Israel respect UN resolutions regarding its acts and omissions vis-à-vis the Palestinian people. I deplore our central government's prejudicial attitude with respect of, for example, the Boycott and Divestment campaign, and for otherwise criminalizing peaceful protest aimed at Israel's illegalities vis-à-vis the Palestinian people! Consider all the evidence carefully, before you insinuate anti-Semitism on the part of myself or other forum posters.

[local]

I am anti-Islam. I'm anti all organised religion, but especially Islam.

I'm anti- gay people being murdered for being LGBT.

I'm anti-women being whipped because a man raped her.

I'm anti-little girls being sold into marriage to 50 year old men.

I'm anti-Muslim grooming gangs.

I'm anti-being blown up at a pop concert.

I'm anti-calls for Sharia law in this country.

I'm anti- all of the above being imported into this country.

I'm anti- Jewish people being terrified in their own country.

I'm not anti-any Muslim individuals, but yes, I'm anti-Islam. Anti-Islamist. Not Islamophobic, because phobia indicates an irrational fear. And anti-any other religion that is still practised with archaic and damaging ideals. Were Christianity still practised by Old Testament standards, I'd be equally against that. Because that would be equally barbaric.

Label me anti-Islam all you like. I'll just point you to the above list and say 'yes'.

30P Lee will be pleased, you could have a meal with him.

I'll pay

[Toodles McGinty]

30P Lee will be pleased, you could have a meal with him.

I'll pay

I'm sure if 30p Lee wants a chat about women's, children's & LGBT rights across the world, or even in this country, you book the table.

If we can't agree to disagree, as I do with many friends and family, then it's a sorry state of affairs. I can diametrically oppose many political views and still find common ground. I wouldn't speak to half of my American cousins if I couldn't.

I even 'like' some of your posts now and again.

[Toodles McGinty]

I reject the notion that European Jews had a unique and exclusive claim to Palestine (a.k.a biblical Judea & Israel) which justifies them displacing the preexistent Arab population therefrom. I deplore successive Israeli governments' encouragement of Jewish settlements in the West Bank obstructing (i.e. their 'facts on the ground') the possibility of a viable, independent Palestinian state. I reject a view sometimes expressed in this thread that having evacuated Jewish settlers from Gaza, the remaining residents are somehow freed from Israeli control. I regret Starmer and Labour politicians' not supporting a ceasefire resolution in Israel's plausibly genocidal war on Gaza. I object to the fact that the UK [as a UN Security Council permanent member] has repeatedly declined to demand that Israel respect UN resolutions regarding its acts and omissions vis-à-vis the Palestinian people. I deplore our central government's prejudicial attitude with respect of, for example, the Boycott and Divestment campaign, and for otherwise criminalizing peaceful protest aimed at Israel's illegalities vis-à-vis the Palestinian people! Consider all the evidence carefully, before you insinuate anti-Semitism on the part of myself or other forum posters.

European Jews were basically handed modern day Israel by the West, which you may or may not agree with, but the fact is as most Israelis were born there, they have as much right to be there as anyone. Or do you want to 'send them back'?

Shades of Enoch?

Israel needs to co-exist with Palestine. Which should also be a state as in the plan outlined a few days ago in this thread.

I agree that Israeli land grabs are wrong. I've seen films of American Israelis taking homes off Palestinians, which if true, is deplorable. Once again, Palestine should be a protected state, free from terrorist control and free from Israeli governance. With clear borders that other states cannot impinge upon.

All major parties in this country have called for a ceasefire. Sunak called for a permanent ceasefire, which he stated wouldn't happen immediately. He's right, a permanent ceasefire won't happen right now. Practically it isn't possible. The last one didn't last a week. Terrorists were still trying to lob missiles into Israel. Maybe not from Gaza, but we're back to those brethrens in terror again.

As far as boycotts and protests are concerned, you do you. If individuals wish to boycott Israeli products or companies, there's nothing illegal about it. But going into shops and taking products off the shelves en masse isn't legal. Terrorising individuals isn't legal. Frightening shop workers isn't legal. Attacking Muslim run establishments for selling Coca Cola isn't legal. Demanding Jews leave a university isn't legal. I'm as in favour of peaceful protest as anyone, possibly more so. But those aren't 'peaceful'.

I've only labelled one person on here as 'antisemite', and that was the Holocaust denier. But your posts come perilously close. Especially when you write that basically Israel brought 7 / 10 upon themselves with your 'Hamas is Israel's fault' remark.

[sandGroundZero]

…
I've only labelled one person on here as 'antisemite', and that was the Holocaust denier. But your posts come perilously close. Especially when you write that basically Israel brought 7 / 10 upon themselves with your 'Hamas is Israel's fault' remark.

underline added

Let's be clear about this:

There would never have been Hamas, if Israel had dealt in good faith from the outset.

Ah, so all those raped, tortured, slaughtered on 7 /10 was Israel's fault. …

You have wrongly reduced my statement to: "…7 /10 was Israel's fault. …" — I neither said nor implied any such thing.

I reject the notion that European Jews had a unique and exclusive claim to Palestine (a.k.a biblical Judea & Israel) which justifies them displacing the preexistent Arab population therefrom.
…

underline added

European Jews were basically handed modern day Israel by the West, which you may or may not agree with, but the fact is as most Israelis were born there, they have as much right to be there as anyone. Or do you want to 'send them back'?
Shades of Enoch?
…

You have made another pernicious and fallacious assumption: "…the notion that European Jews had a unique and exclusive claim to Palestine …which justifies them displacing the preexistent Arab population therefrom." — alludes to a widespread view that because there were two kingdoms in biblical Palestine from which Judaism traces its roots, it somehow follows that the modern State of Israel is entitled to displace Palestine's Arab population and to create a state in which Jews are privileged above others. This quite simply DOES NOT suggest that Jews must return to Europe, or wherever … . There are some dismaying instances of lack of care in reading evident in this thread.

[sandGroundZero]

Palestinian-American woman who faces trial in Israeli military court is released on bail This undated family photo shows Samaher Esmail, a Palestinian-American from Louisiana who is being tried in Israeli military court for incitement, pictured on a family trip to Turkey. Esmail who was beaten, dragged out of her home and detained by Israeli authorities for over three weeks was released on bail Thursday Feb. 29, 2024 to wait out the remainder of her trial in the West Bank, the latest case to draw international attention to the prosecution of an American in Israeli military court. (Family handout via AP) … That a U.S. citizen is being tried in military court — a legal system for West Bank Palestinians separate from the civilian courts enjoyed by Israelis — has drawn widespread criticism. Israel says it provides due process and largely imprisons those who threaten its security. Palestinians and human rights groups say the system is awash in violations of due process and almost always renders guilty verdicts, with 95% of military court hearings ending in convictions, according to Israeli watchdog Military Court Watch. … The U.S. Embassy did not have immediate comment. Esmail’s family said she often traveled back and forth between the West Bank and the U.S., where she manages a family owned grocery store in the New Orleans suburb of Gretna and worked as a tutor at a nearby high school. She was in the West Bank to see relatives and testify at a hearing about a previous encounter with Israeli forces where she was beaten, her representatives said. “It’s clear why they’re holding her,” said Hamed. “They’re trying to use her as an example and to intimidate Palestinians. Cases like these have people deleting their social media, canceling their trips to Palestine. They’re trying to silence us.” Julia Frankel | February 29, 2024 Copyright 2024 The Associated Press.