Divided England

[Toodles McGinty]

'Liverpool Labour' takes some beating when it comes to vitriol. I think they still hate Johnson and his fellow Tory 'Nazis' and 'scum' more than 'treasonous' 'dictator' 'Keir Stalin' but it can seem a close-run affair.

But when it comes to a history of vicious infighting it's difficult for Labour to match the destructive decades of a Conservative Party at war with itself over the issue of Europe. There was an article last year in The Telegraph titled: Europe brought down six Tory PMs. Can Boris avoid being the seventh?

With a thumping majority he probably feels safe for now, but moods can shift rapidly, and those recent comments from the chair of the OBR re forecasts on the long-run impact of Brexit on GDP will inevitably be repeatedly referenced.

I know Labour members who would rather lose the next election than have Starmer become PM.

I don't think they've much to worry about on that score. I don't know if you saw Frankie Boyle's blistering piece on his show on Thursday, but it was very funny. If I was Starmer, I'd have resigned immediately.

And there are those who are said to have sabotaged the 2017 election rather than Corbyn win. Makes me wonder why they bother with politics. There's no 'pure' Labour. It's meant to be a broad church. A general nod towards Democratic Socialism is enough for me. I might join the Greens.

As for the Tories, I saw a couple of interesting pieces today. One was a poll saying that the public strongly associated the party with sleaze. Again, I think there's a difference between 'party' and 'government' that most are missing. The other is that as Johnson isn't really a team player, that he has no particular affiliation or belief in anything but his own entitlement, he's easily replaced. It was going back to his net zero statements bothering the 'Britannia Unchained' / ERG bunch.

Although if David Attenborough gets Covid in the next few days, I reckon it'll be taken out of their hands. Tory or Labour, remain or leave, you don't harm a National Treasure. Torches and pitchforks at the ready.

[Desert Region]

Not sure that the Nazis nor Stalin are apt when it comes to those who ignore climate change. If so, it pretty much applies to most people in the developed world, rather than just politicians.

Yes, it was an unpleasant and ridiculously poorly thought-out contribution to the discussion.

Although I suppose it's apt that an archbishop should respond to the call of Godwin's law!

He never did specify which political leaders he had in mind as his Hitler figure, as his Mengele figure, etc. Going off Biden's COP26 criticisms of China and Russia, perhaps archbishop Welby had Xi and Putin in mind...

He did stick the landing, though, with the apology:

“I unequivocally apologise for the words I used when trying to emphasise the gravity of the situation facing us at Cop26. It’s never right to make comparisons with the atrocities brought by the Nazis, and I’m sorry for the offence caused to Jews by these words.”

I know Labour members who would rather lose the next election than have Starmer become PM.

I don't think they've much to worry about on that score. I don't know if you saw Frankie Boyle's blistering piece on his show on Thursday, but it was very funny. If I was Starmer, I'd have resigned immediately.

And there are those who are said to have sabotaged the 2017 election rather than Corbyn win. Makes me wonder why they bother with politics. There's no 'pure' Labour. It's meant to be a broad church. A general nod towards Democratic Socialism is enough for me. I might join the Greens.

As for the Tories, I saw a couple of interesting pieces today. One was a poll saying that the public strongly associated the party with sleaze. Again, I think there's a difference between 'party' and 'government' that most are missing. The other is that as Johnson isn't really a team player, that he has no particular affiliation or belief in anything but his own entitlement, he's easily replaced. It was going back to his net zero statements bothering the 'Britannia Unchained' / ERG bunch.

Although if David Attenborough gets Covid in the next few days, I reckon it'll be taken out of their hands. Tory or Labour, remain or leave, you don't harm a National Treasure. Torches and pitchforks at the ready.

I've now seen some clips and extracts of Boyle mocking Starmer. Yeah, very funny! I lost it at the footage of the boxing punch bag session. The general criticisms of Starmer remind me of the type of "wet lettuce" reaction that Major got. I think that Starmer as leader and Rayner as deputy make for a decent team and that with Starmer as leader, the forthrightness and passion of Rayner is essential, in helping retain Labour supporters who are disappointed / uninspired by Starmer (with Starmer's role clearly being to appeal to the 'soft Tories' and floating voters that Corbyn didn't appeal to or frightened away.)

Johnson's making too many mistakes. His decisions around the Owen Paterson affair have been jaw-droppingly badly judged. His political winning streak and thumping majority have resulted in his hubris and sense of untouchability rocketing off the charts. In addition, he as an alpha male (or self-perceived alpha) looks across from his despatch box at Starmer to see no threat there, which is feeding into his recklessness. Johnson is someone heading for a fall and he'll potentially take this Government down with him.

[local]

For every vote Starmer wins Rayner loses two, she is simply out of her depth.

Starmer would make a better deputy but he has little voter appeal to me he is thoroughly dishonest and backed Corbyn

There are no Saints or Angels available to run the Labour Party so like the Conservatives they better start looking for a leader with some ounce of electability.

The Tories found the flawed Boris and even I as an alleged sycophant know he only got elected because of Brexit and people wanting democracy protected.

Labour should grasp the nettle and accept without winning you ain't getting what you want.

[Toodles McGinty]

I've now seen some clips and extracts of Boyle mocking Starmer. Yeah, very funny! I lost it at the footage of the boxing punch bag session. The general criticisms of Starmer remind me of the type of "wet lettuce" reaction that Major got. I think that Starmer as leader and Rayner as deputy make for a decent team and that with Starmer as leader, the forthrightness and passion of Rayner is essential, in helping retain Labour supporters who are disappointed / uninspired by Starmer (with Starmer's role clearly being to appeal to the 'soft Tories' and floating voters that Corbyn didn't appeal to or frightened away.)

Johnson's making too many mistakes. His decisions around the Owen Paterson affair have been jaw-droppingly badly judged. His political winning streak and thumping majority have resulted in his hubris and sense of untouchability rocketing off the charts. In addition, he as an alpha male (or self-perceived alpha) looks across from his despatch box at Starmer to see no threat there, which is feeding into his recklessness. Johnson is someone heading for a fall and he'll potentially take this Government down with him.

Rayner wiped the floor with Johnson at PMQs this week. She's good, but just from the comments on here there's a snobbery surrounding her accent and her progression from teen mother to deputy leader. Incredibly provincial, and not a small amount of forelock tugging, as though Johnson or Mogg's privileged tones make them our betters in some way. I'm still not convinced about Starmer. Unless Murdoch suddenly decides he's flavour of the month, I don't see him having a chance at an election.

As for Johnson, I'm still of the opinion he was always intended to take the fall for Brexit. The timeline has been extended because of Covid, but he's pretty much in the position I expected. He's not a statesman. He's not even a politician. He wants to be a performer, to make big speeches. But even then, he veers off and ad-libs, then waits for his audience's approval. Fine when he's got his party behind him in the House, but he goes down like a lead balloon in places like COP. Or even TV interviews.

I read an interesting piece yesterday. It said

“Voters are like an 800lb gorilla sitting quietly in the corner getting on with their lives and eating their leaves … until suddenly that gorilla sits up and notices you, and then you’re in real trouble.”

Watching Question Time last night, there wasn't a single show of support for the government. Shaky ground.

I think Johnson is in stalking horse territory. Maybe a Tory MP who has no real aspirations to leadership but is well-known in the House, like Sir Anthony Mayer in 1989, to test the water.